A lawsuit filed in California by concert giant AXS has revealed a legal and technological battle between ticket scalpers and platforms like Ticketmaster and AXS, in which scalpers have figured out how to extract “untransferable” tickets from their accounts by generating entry barcodes on parallel infrastructure that the scalpers control and which can then be sold and transferred to customers.
By reverse-engineering how Ticketmaster and AXS actually make their electronic tickets, scalpers have essentially figured out how to regenerate specific, genuine tickets that they have legally purchased from scratch onto infrastructure that they control. In doing so, they are removing the anti-scalping restrictions put on the tickets by Ticketmaster and AXS.
So Ticketmaster and AXS are suing to maintain their monopoly on scalping?
Fuck ticketmaster. Fuck scalpers also. But ticketmaster are also scalpers so fuck them twice.
Ticketmaster also own Stubhub and provides pre sale services to them before the gen pub gets to even see the tickets
Ticket master (live nation) shouldn’t exist IMO
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Artists don’t have enough money in the bank to enact what would basically be a strike. If they stopped playing Ticketmaster venues, they’d basically stop playing actual venues entirely. They’d have to play tiny independent venues, where they’d end up losing money, because they physically can’t sell enough tickets to cover the cost of time, travel, paying roadies, etc. Or, the ticket prices would be inaccessibly high.
The problem with live shows is directly attributable to the effective monopoly that Ticketmaster has, allowing them to fuck over artists and venues equally.
The very few artists who do, and have the creative freedom to so do are probably the only ones who could get away with this. Convention Centers don’t seem to have the same density of existing Ticketmaster relationships, and while they’d have to pay to bring in seating at some, I bet they could do it for something similar to Ticketmaster’s middleman fees.
I’m not sure the difference between costs for concert venues and convention centers, but if it’s anywhere near comparable, it could be feasible.
Monopolies are the opposite of choice.
A lot of venues require events to use ticketmaster so the artists often have no choice
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The artist does have a choice in that they can play at a live nation venue and work through Ticketmaster, or they can find a new career because live nation has a monopoly on venues as well as ticketing. So in reality the only artists that have a choice are the Taylor Swifts that are essentially market makers, and the nobodies that aren’t selling tickets anywhere but at the door anyway.
That’s the nature of monopolies. Yes, if all artists banded (no pun intended) together and told live nation to fuck off, it would work, but getting everyone to do it won’t ever happen. So unfortunately, you have to play the game or get out. Ideally, existing laws would prevent this from happening, but our law makers and enforcers are a bunch of money hungry, corporate sluts, so we end up with this broken system.
they’re the talent people are paying for
Kinda naïve view…
Artists that have to work hard are not really free. They need every stage where they can get on.
Artists that are actually rich cannot make such a decision just for themselves. There is a whole company of people around them. They create and perform their shows together.
Having a choice isn’t much if s choice when it’s a monopoly.
Also here’s some inside baseball about the Dimension 20 / Ticketmaster nonsense that happened earlier this year
they. could. choose. not. to. play. the. venues.
And how will they earn a living? Record, radio, and streaming pays almost nothing. Live performance is how most make their living.
Going ticketmaster-less for a tour has been tried before by a huge name at the time Pearl Jam. This was almost 30 years ago now. It just wasn’t viable playing the few venues that could accept ticketmaster-less shows.
Here’s part of that history:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/pearl-jam-taking-on-ticketmaster-67440/
You must starve for your ethics obviously \s
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yes, dummy
Oh wow. I didn’t realize you’re not able to have an adult conversation. This is helpful information.
they could take the year off, they could only play smaller venues, or even larger ones that don’t use tickemaster.
I addressed that already, but I see my mistake wasn’t using your chosen method of communication. Let me try again:
Pearl. Jam. tried. that. and. there. aren’t. enough. ticketmaster-less. venues. available. that. are. large. enough. to. cover. the. costs. of. a. nation. wide. tour.
the artists are the talent
except. the. biggest. stars. the. talent. is. paid. very. little. and. has. very. little. control. over. their. performance. choices. and. they. need. to. feed. themselves. as. music. is. their. livelihood.
this is not fucking rocket science
This is business and law, and its far closer to rocket science than your elementary understanding makes it out to be. Its one thing to be ignorant of the way things work. Its yet another to stand proudly and proclaiming you don’t care about being ignorant.
the fault usurious ticketmaster fees falls squarely on the shoulders and in the fault of the artists allow them to pimp their tickets.
I would think that would fall on…you know, maybe the company imposing the fees, or the government and regulatory environment that allows it to continue to go on…but you know what? You’re right; the individual artists are to blame. /s
Why don’t the artists just make their own venues and start their own Ticketmaster competitor?! Surely they got into music not to try to express themselves, create art, maybe get famous, and make a living! They got into it to become venue builders, show organizers, and to be embroiled in the politics of the music industry. /s
It still makes me angry that the whole music industry left Pearl Jam out to dry on this. Had even half the artist touring joined in solidarity with Pearl Jam it would probably be a much better market for concert goers these days.
It wasn’t only the music industry. The Department of Justice ruling kneecapped Pearl Jam’s efforts of reform giving Ticketmaster the foundation to build the even larger empire it has today.
Yes, they can choose to either NOT be a professional artist, or to work with Live Nation and Ticket Master.
It’s one, or the other.
It was also cheaper 30 years ago to pay everyone involved in that band’s tour, which all comes out of the artist’s pot of money. So a smaller venue means less for artists and the crews supporting them.
So, while doing this now sounds great, that would mean your either continuing to pay a road crew no longer needed for these much smaller tours/venues, or laying these people off (when some of these people will have been part of these crews for the bands touring lifetime).
Sure, they can choose to get paid or not.
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After one of the researchers published their findings in February, brokers tried to hire the researcher to build ticket transfer services for them.
… so they could be silenced by an NDA.
This is one of those fights where you just hope everyone involved loses. Beyond losing, I’d prefer they all fall into a bottomless pit, but I’m not sure that’s attainable.
I’d
buyscalp tickets to watch that.Nah, I want Ticketmaster specifically to loose. Fuck them.
Scalpers are a problem that transcend Ticketmaster. Heck, they transcend the world of event tickets. Scalpers are a pain in so many areas. Fuck them.
Let’s hope for a long legal flight where Ticketmaster ends up getting broken up, but Ticketmaster drags the scalpers down with them in legal fees.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that at this point Ticketmaster might be one of the most hated company in America.
Eh…
Bank of America, Comcast, Wells Fargo, Amazon, Google…
Just to name a few.
Ticketmaster is in the top 25 for sure.
I miss old-school Consumerist and their annual Worst Company in America brackets.
I used to work for Comcast and one time after they had won the “Worst Company in the World” contest two years in a row they sent out a company-wide email telling them to participate in the contest and vote for some other company. Everyone I knew there participated in the contest but we didn’t follow the instructions exactly lol.
Most of those have more indirect disgust. They still have some redeeming qualities for their users.
Ticketmaster is almost universally understood to be nothing other than a petty middle man extracting fees for no reason other than they can.
generating entry barcodes on parallel infrastructure
I guess that reverse engineering itself isn’t illegal, but creating tickets without the real ticket seller’s authorization seems plain fraud IMHO.
I won’t count it as fruad unless they double sell it. It’s only as far breaching the tos.
You bought the ticket. Selling it isn’t fraud.
You’re not creating tickets that weren’t purchased. You’re just transferring them without their permission.
So if I sell my “Dr.” title to you, then that is OK in your jurisdiction?
Well, around here, it is different.
This is the dumbest analogy anyone has ever written.
Sheldon Cooper uses this phrase, too. Every time when he has been proven wrong.
are you seriously using a tv character analogy to defend your point??? buying a ticket doesn’t require any intense academic background lmao
And there are technical details from the reverse-engineering of Ticketmaster’s ticket format here. tl;dr: it’s two of the TOTP authentication codes you use for 2-factor authentication rolled into a barcode, along with some additional data.
This is equal parts informative and hilarious. Ticketmaster sucks.
The conclusion says it best:
I think we can all agree: Fuck TicketMaster. I hope their sleazy product managers and business majors read this and throw a tantrum. I hope their devs read this and feel embarrassed. It’s rare that I feel genuine malice towards other developers, but to those who designed this system, I say: Shame.
Shame on you for abusing your talent to exclude the technologically-disadvantaged.
Shame on you for letting the marketing team dress this dark-pattern as a safety measure.
Shame on you for supporting a company with such cruel business practices.
Software developers are the wizards and shamans of the modern age. We ought to use our powers with the austerity and integrity such power implies. You’re using them to exclude people from entertainment events.
Yah. Pearl Jam spent years in limbo because they thought everyone would join the fight. But no big name artists ever did because no one wanted to rock the boat. During COVID ticketmaster / clear channel/liveNation/ iHeartRadio whatever have continued to consolidate. They own the tickets they own the resell websites they own most of the big venues they can demand merch sales at the venue. If you refuse they can remove you from playing their venues.
At this point it would take 10+ huge artists to final kill this beast. We are talking Taylor Swift / Beyonce big that actually have complete creative control. I don’t even think most top artists have that. They would have to organize everything and they would probably lose union contracts for stage craft and audio, lights, transportation. Basically they would have to start their own ticket & touring companys that outdoor fields and sports areas? and would have to stick it out for years and convince a good majority to stop buying tickets from any place using Ticketmaster.
The big artists don’t fight this because they make more money under the status quo, and Ticketmaster takes all the heat and they can play victim while raking in the cash.
To them it’s a feature, not a bug.
the Cure isn’t exactly huge anymore but they did it. All it takes is the artist to have respect for their fans.
goth bands trying not to take w’s challenge impossible
I don’t buy anything on ticketmaster. I won’t install their app.
I still see people I want to see. I just may have to travel to do so.
Yes they’re TOTP codes and Ticketmaster gives you the secret. You do in fact have the ticket.
In the blog post, Conduition explains that, essentially, these tickets work in the same way as two-factor authentication codes in authenticator apps. These are called “Time-based One-Time Passwords,” and can be generated offline (like a 2FA code). Ticketmaster basically shares a secret, unique token with the person who bought the ticket. This token allows the Ticketmaster app to generate a “new” ticket every 15 seconds based on the time of day. Once the device has this token, it is possible to generate the tickets no matter whether it’s online or not. As Conduition found, if you’ve bought a ticket, this token can be extracted from within the Ticketmaster app (or, in some cases, from Ticketmaster’s desktop website), exported to a third-party platform, and tickets can then be generated on that third-party platform.
The original reporting by 404media is excellent in that it covers the background context, links to the actual PDF of the lawsuit, and reaches out to an outside expert to verify information presented in the lawsuit and learned from their research. It’s a worthwhile read, although it’s behind a paywall; archive.ph may be effective though.
For folks that just want to see the lawsuit and its probably-dodgy claims, the most recent First Amended Complaint is available through RECAP here, along with most of the other legal documents in the case. As for how RECAP can store copies of these documents, see this FAQ and consider donating to their cause.
Basically, AXS complains about nine things, generally around: copyright infringement, DMCA violations (ie hacking/reverse engineering), trademark counterfeiting and infringement, various unfair competition statutes, civil conspiracy, and breach of contract (re: terms of service).
I find the civil conspiracy claim to be a bit weird, since it would require proof that the various other ticket websites actually made contact with each other and agreed to do the other eight things that AXS is complaining about. Why would those other websites – who are mutual competitors – do that? Of course, this is just the complaint, so it’s whatever AXS wants to claim under “information and belief”, aka it’s what they think happened, not necessarily with proof yet.
although it’s behind a paywall
Pedantic to call it a “loginwall”/“emailwall”?
404’s reporting is so good, if anyone with that caliber of content made entering an email the standard I’d be okay with that. (I used an anonymous forwarding address, specific to them.) I think it’s worth the time setting up a forwarding address & setting filters as necessary to keep their emails out of your inbox if you can’t stand the thought, hope it helps their metrics.
So ticketmasters tickets were so unsecured that some hackers were able to break the scheme? Hmm, maybe they should have employed a professional then…
at this point in life I think I already saw all the bands I wanted in concert. I think I can afford to boycot these mfs and stick to local concerts that dont use that garbage company.
Every year we have a local indie music festival run by our city. It’s free, and bands have their albums available for sale there. That’s where I go for live music, it’s way better than those mega bands anyway.
They got some “fuck you got mine” mentality now?
Jesus, is there any way both sides can lose? Because fuck ticket scalpers, but fuck Ticketmaster too.
I mean Ticketmaster basically are scalpers
Ticketmaster is worse than scalpers.
I’d rather deal with scalpers than this monopolistic bullshit
You’d rather have 2 middle men for your ticket purchase?
I’d rather be able to sell my ticket if I can’t go for at least face value. Ticketmaster sometime won’t let you sell the ticket to another person, or only allows you to sell back to them at 1/10th the face value…just so they can resell it again. Didnt even mention all the convenience fees for all those trades too.
If I had a paper ticket, I could just sell it no problem
Going through a scalper means that the ticket supply is artificially decreased, which pumps up the price. Then you run the risk of your ticket not working when you turn up to the venue.
Scalping increases the liquidity of tickets. This establishes a “market price” that can be higher or lower than the face value.
Not too different from ticketmaster at that point lol
