https://archive.is/j7NqS if you don’t want to be assaulted by cookie notices and paywalls and more.
Edit to add:
I find it absurd how this logic is used so often:
He insisted that Russia was justified in starting the war because Ukraine was run by “Nazis”, even though its president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is Jewish.
It’s logical nonsense to think the two are mutually exclusive. Moreover, it ignores the very real issue of Nazis in Ukraine. We even see this “don’t believe your eyes” nonsense, trying to convince people open and proud Nazis aren’t in fact Nazis.
Nobody honestly believes Putin started the war to fight Nazis, he just used it as an excuse because he thought the West would stay out of his way for this flimsy lie. Instead he was quickly called out for using resources such as his own Wagner Group in the war which directly recruit modern Nazis, and thus lost all credibility.
Russia also said demilitarisation and pointed fingers at NATO. If it’s this and denazification, it would suggest that Russia was hoping for NATO/the West to get involved in exactly the way that it got involved.
Further, the Russian perspective is that NATO was already involved by running a coup then supporting about a decade of shelling in Donbass. If that’s the case – and the important detail here is not what westerners think NATO reps were doing in Ukraine all those years, but what Russia thought – there is no logical scenario in which Western involvement comes as a surprise. It was known to be there before the invasion.
And if NATO really wasn’t in Ukraine before that invasion, the point still stands: Russia expected NATO involvement even if it’s initial intelligence was faulty.
That doesn’t mean denazification is the main reason for the invasion. Although there are people who accept that reasoning as it was more than just a Nazi presence. It was an organised Nazi terror campaign against ethnic Russians living in Ukraine, killing thousands.
No matter how you look at it, Putin was just swinging his dick around thinking he was a big boy that could tell everyone else where to stick it. I really do believe he thought Russia was a dominant world power, but he’s living in the dark ages and didn’t have a clue that social media can change governments. Zelenskyy knew how to play the game and got people to care about his country again, and that immediately made a difference in how much aid they could ask for.
I’m not sure if you wilfully missed the point of my comment or if I wasn’t explicit enough. I wasn’t commenting on whether or not that was Putin’s motivation. My complaint was with the logic: “there can’t be a Nazi problem in Ukraine, because Zelenskyy is Jewish”. That’s it. That logic is faulty and disingenuous, because that implies there is not a nazi problem in Ukraine, when there absolutely is.
Also, most people bringing up “but the Ukrainian Nazis!!!” are arguing in bad faith (and a lot are fascists themselves, lol). So rather than wasting your time giving a nuanced overview of the far right in Ukraine, Russia, and the West to someone who’s just going to ignore it and reply in bad faith anyways, it’s way easier to just say “Zelensky’s Jewish, lol” and move on with your life.
(To be 100% clear: I DO NOT THINK THE PERSON YOU REPLIED TO IS ARGUING IN BAD FAITH. This comment is more a blanket generalization, not about this specific interaction.)
On reddit I typically ignore them as nearly all are either bots, paid propagandists, or Nazis themselves who are stupid enough to think they’re going to change someone’s mind. But Lemmy is a whole new ballgame, and if the poster IS one of the above trying to be sneaky about sowing doubt, I didn’t want to leave the comment unchallenged for others to get the wrong idea. I mean this whole post could have just been left at “Putin said…” and most of us just have a good laugh and move on. :-)
“Zelenskyy is Jewish therefore there is no Nazi problem is Ukraine” is logical nonsense. It’s a quick quip but it doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
It’s also not of any value to anyone to assert that people arguing against you must be arguing in bad faith, or are themselves fascists. If something specific can be pointed to that makes either of those seem likely, call that out. Otherwise you’re trying to shut down the conversation, not have real discussion.
https://archive.is/j7NqS if you don’t want to be assaulted by cookie notices and paywalls and more.
Edit to add: I find it absurd how this logic is used so often:
It’s logical nonsense to think the two are mutually exclusive. Moreover, it ignores the very real issue of Nazis in Ukraine. We even see this “don’t believe your eyes” nonsense, trying to convince people open and proud Nazis aren’t in fact Nazis.
Nobody honestly believes Putin started the war to fight Nazis, he just used it as an excuse because he thought the West would stay out of his way for this flimsy lie. Instead he was quickly called out for using resources such as his own Wagner Group in the war which directly recruit modern Nazis, and thus lost all credibility.
Russia also said demilitarisation and pointed fingers at NATO. If it’s this and denazification, it would suggest that Russia was hoping for NATO/the West to get involved in exactly the way that it got involved.
Further, the Russian perspective is that NATO was already involved by running a coup then supporting about a decade of shelling in Donbass. If that’s the case – and the important detail here is not what westerners think NATO reps were doing in Ukraine all those years, but what Russia thought – there is no logical scenario in which Western involvement comes as a surprise. It was known to be there before the invasion.
And if NATO really wasn’t in Ukraine before that invasion, the point still stands: Russia expected NATO involvement even if it’s initial intelligence was faulty.
That doesn’t mean denazification is the main reason for the invasion. Although there are people who accept that reasoning as it was more than just a Nazi presence. It was an organised Nazi terror campaign against ethnic Russians living in Ukraine, killing thousands.
No matter how you look at it, Putin was just swinging his dick around thinking he was a big boy that could tell everyone else where to stick it. I really do believe he thought Russia was a dominant world power, but he’s living in the dark ages and didn’t have a clue that social media can change governments. Zelenskyy knew how to play the game and got people to care about his country again, and that immediately made a difference in how much aid they could ask for.
Isn’t this supposed to be the same guy who allegedly interfered in US elections using social media to put orange man in office?
I’m not sure if you wilfully missed the point of my comment or if I wasn’t explicit enough. I wasn’t commenting on whether or not that was Putin’s motivation. My complaint was with the logic: “there can’t be a Nazi problem in Ukraine, because Zelenskyy is Jewish”. That’s it. That logic is faulty and disingenuous, because that implies there is not a nazi problem in Ukraine, when there absolutely is.
There is a nazi problem in pretty much every country, it may just have a different label. This does not justify declaring war.
Also, most people bringing up “but the Ukrainian Nazis!!!” are arguing in bad faith (and a lot are fascists themselves, lol). So rather than wasting your time giving a nuanced overview of the far right in Ukraine, Russia, and the West to someone who’s just going to ignore it and reply in bad faith anyways, it’s way easier to just say “Zelensky’s Jewish, lol” and move on with your life.
(To be 100% clear: I DO NOT THINK THE PERSON YOU REPLIED TO IS ARGUING IN BAD FAITH. This comment is more a blanket generalization, not about this specific interaction.)
On reddit I typically ignore them as nearly all are either bots, paid propagandists, or Nazis themselves who are stupid enough to think they’re going to change someone’s mind. But Lemmy is a whole new ballgame, and if the poster IS one of the above trying to be sneaky about sowing doubt, I didn’t want to leave the comment unchallenged for others to get the wrong idea. I mean this whole post could have just been left at “Putin said…” and most of us just have a good laugh and move on. :-)
“Zelenskyy is Jewish therefore there is no Nazi problem is Ukraine” is logical nonsense. It’s a quick quip but it doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
It’s also not of any value to anyone to assert that people arguing against you must be arguing in bad faith, or are themselves fascists. If something specific can be pointed to that makes either of those seem likely, call that out. Otherwise you’re trying to shut down the conversation, not have real discussion.