tankies claim to be communists but spend all day parroting their favorite Russian or Chinese state propaganda
Tell us how these “tankies” are “parroting” propaganda and we’ll tell you exactly how your geopolitical opinions align with the US State Dept.
When did I say I agree with US propaganda?
For starters, right here where you showed your whole ass and said: “If China is a socialist state worth supporting then I’m a donkey with a laser dick”
You do seem to be quite a donkey but clearly it’s just overconfident false advertisement about the laser.
If China is so great then why does it feel the need to dictate over Hong Kong and Taiwan? Does China have gay marriage? Trans rights perhaps?
I’m not saying China is as bad as the West claims it is. I’m just saying it’s not something to get wild about. It’s a nation state (a far too big one at that), which are by definition tools of oppression.
The nuances of the PRC’s desire for a one china policy largely stem from the Marxist theory of Nations, along with a desire to throw off all western colonizers. Without understanding the depths of the “century of humiliation” you can’t hope to understand the desire for a unified China.
Thirdly, nobody is saying the PRC is Anarchist, but your insistence that everyone agree with you saying the government is by definition a tool of oppression despite 90%+ approval rates stands at direct odds with the people themselves. Like it or not, you must face the reality that it is Marxism that has brought great improvements to China’s conditions, and these improvements are continuing at a rapid pace, and thus has widespread support.
it is Marxism that has brought great improvements to China’s conditions, and these improvements are continuing at a rapid pace, and thus has widespread support.
I can face that reality I think.
All fair points, but what about Taiwan and Hong Kong? What about the treatment of minorities?
Others have done far more research on those subjects and can answer them better than I can, so rather than contribute to the spread of nonsense I will refrain from speaking outside of what I factually know.
Hong Kong has experienced violent oppression from China when there were protests. Taiwan wants to be independent but is not recognized as such by China. While Western media has certainly exaggerated claims, there are credible reports of uyghurs being repressed. I’m not saying this behavior is worse than Western imperialist behavior. I’m saying these are imperialist behaviors, and just like the US, the Chinese government tries to cover them up or pretend they aren’t happening, or comes up with some reason for it.
What I’m saying is that there are some people who buy into that, and will shut down any criticism of it.
There’s a lot going on here, so I will go section by section.
Hong Kong
The scale of the violence against protestors is exaggerated, and much of the protests were directly funded by Hong Kong bourgeoisie and Western NGOs and States, like the US. Currently, less than a quarter want independence. This is because Hong Kong was a british colony and financially is totally enmeshed with mainland China.
Taiwan
Both Taiwan and the PRC claim legitimate rule to the entirety of China. However, Taiwan’s historical background is as a runaway retreat for the Kuomintang, a Nationalist party that was at war with the much more popular CPC. Taiwan also serves as a staging ground for the US to exert pressure on the PRC.
Uyghur Repression
This is a topic I don’t know enough about, and reserve the right not to speak. However, I will say that claims of “genocide” come from the fascist Adrian Zenz, and moreover travel to Xinjiang is open and freely permissible. In addition, Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, as all minority populations were. I cannot speak on the treatment within the re-education camps, however, as I have not done the research necessary.
Imperialism
When Marxists speak of Imperialism, they speak of Lenin’s definition and outlining, which refers to a specific stage in Capitalism where Industrial and Financial Capital are exported to super-exploit for super-profits. These actions by the PRC do not constitute Imperialism from that standpoint.
Covering up
I am not aware of the CPC covering up or censoring discussion of these topics.
You mean the island where the fascist fled after they lost the Chinese civil war and now acts as a base of US military hegemony?
Hong Kong
What about Hong Kong? The UK leased it after they won a colonialist war in the 19th century. The last British governor of Hong Kong was a white dude appointed from London. What about Hong Kong?
“Only 17% of Hong Kongers say they want independence from China with just 20% saying China has abused the “one country, two systems” model to favor Beijing, a Reuters poll released on December 31 shows.”
You mean the island where the fascist fled after they lost the Chinese civil war and now acts as a base of US military hegemony?
So what? Imperialism is suddenly okay if you don’t like the ruling ideology there? That is the same logic underlying US imperialism, and coincidentally, fits the old definition of the word tankie.
What about Hong Kong?
You may recall protests being violently repressed.
Could you give us examples?
Many uighurs have been imprisoned for example.
Also your screenshot once again, just tries to prove China is awesome, because the US is bad. I’m not trying to compare the two.
What are you trying to prove to me? That China is perfect? I know you don’t believe that.
So what? Imperialism is suddenly okay if you don’t like the ruling ideology there?
My brother in NED, it’s not just about a “ruling ideology”, Taiwan is literally a US stronghold against China, and if you recall your geography lessons from high school, you might remember that the United States is in North America on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. If any country does imperialism on that side of the globe it’s the USA, since Taiwan is called Republic of China, and most countries don’t recognize ROC as the “true” China.
You may recall protests being violently repressed.
You may recall that the CIA literally foments colour revolutions against geopolitical rivals or countries who don’t swear fealty to the US. Have you heard of Jacobo Arbenz? Mossadegh? and so on?
You may recall that hours ago I literally quoted that 83% of Hongkongers want to belong to China.
What are you trying to prove to me? That China is perfect? I know you don’t believe that.
The point is, since it eludes you for some reason, is that it’s pure projection from the West of accusing China of bad minority policies, when the West is worse in many many ways. Not that China is “perfect” whatever that means in real world policies, but the West want you to think China = BAD. And the only reason you do this hand-wringing about minorities in China is because US State Department think tanks implanted that thought in your head some time ago by bombarding you with anti-China propaganda.
The other point is that anarchists crying about tankies are just useful idiots, since the real threat to capitalist hegemony is the actually existing socialist countries. That’s why the FBI and the CIA was always more concerned about Leninists than about anarchists.
If China is so great then why does it feel the need to dictate over Hong Kong and Taiwan?
It doesn’t. Taiwan and Hong Kong ARE China. If anything the high level of autonomy that China allows reactionary regional governments to have is what should be criticized.
Does China have gay marriage? Trans rights perhaps?
China allows for civil unions for LGBTQ. https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1162943.shtml It made civil unions legal across the nation before USA made gay marriage legal in every state. Like all places in the world (some more than others) China has a long way to go on LGBTQ rights. But that’s just it, China is improving along those lines, while the US is rapidly regressing. China is improving with trans rights and has been punishing companies that violate them. So yes, we should absolutely support China in continuing to move in the correct direction.
It’s a nation state (a far too big one at that), which are by definition tools of oppression.
Lol, by whose definition? A state is only as good or bad as the ruling class that wields it. A bourgeois (capitalist) state will always be oppressive. As a socialist state (and China is a socialist state), the CPC uses its power to suppress the constant attempts of the bourgeois to oppress the working class.
China is improving along those lines, while the US is rapidly regressing
That’s fair, but it’s once again an argument based entirely on comparing China to the US. The US being bad doesn’t make China good. To get back to my original argument, I’m just saying that the word ‘tankie’ refers to China or Russia simps. There is no nation in this world worth simping for.
So the Taiwanese all desperately want to join the DPRC? Last I checked Taiwan was a sovereign nation. Capitalism has a foothold there but the British no longer rule there. Justifying imperialism with imperialism also doesn’t magically make it okay
Capitalism has a foothold there but the British no longer rule there. Justifying imperialism with imperialism also doesn’t magically make it okay
No they just installed a friendly neocolonial government. Jesus Christ do some basic investigation. If the British invaded part of your hometown and installed a puppet government, would you call it imperialism for it to be taken back by your town?
Okay I may have worded that wrong but that is also misleading. China is a huge power (I say this is a problem as you may recall). Having diplomatic ties with China is necessary for most nations. China refuses to have diplomatic ties with anyone who recognizes Taiwan as a sovereign nation. So, everybody pretends they don’t recognize it, officially. In reality Taiwan has its own government and isn’t ruled over by China. In 1991, Taiwan/ROC even recognized the DPRC.
Wut? Oh, you think that’s imperialism? Stating the fact that Taiwan is part of China and that Hong Kong is also just a region (SAR if you even know what that is) of China? All this shows is you have no fucking clue what imperialism even is. You literally don’t know what that word means. Not by ML standards clearly, but not even by general layman standards. And it shows you know absolutely nothing about the history of this situation, which is typical of the sinophobic liberal. Taiwan is ran by a fascist nationalist government that tried to wipe out the workers movements and that still claims to be the “rightful” rulers not only of all of China but also other sovereign nations like Mongolia. And you’re saying that China allowing them to continue to operate while slowly working towards future reunification is “imperialism.” That’s just sick. Take a look at what the US via the IMF and World Bank does to impoverished global south nations (that are impoverished solely because the US impoverished them for the purpose of subjugation and unequal exchange) to begin to understand what imperialism looks like. Then come back and tell me China’s lenient position on Taiwan is “imperialism.”
The US being bad doesn’t make China good.
Never said it did. BUT part of why China is good is because it is overtaking the US which is unambiguously bad. This is one of the many things China is doing (in this case passively, but it does a hell of a lot of active good too) that is beneficial to humanity.
There is no nation in this world worth simping for.
I don’t know what you think “simping” for a country even means, given it’s a slang term involving romantic attraction, but if by “simping” for a nation, you mean “expressing vocal approval and ideologically supporting it,” then yes, there are nations absolutely worth “simping” for. Cuba immediately comes to mind as the obvious one. But China also deserves the vocal approval and support of leftists since it is in fact a socialist state and is in fact doing much good in the world, both for the masses of people living within it as well as for most of the rest of the world through BRI and the fact that it is undermining the actual imperialist’s ability to beat the global south into submission. Russia deserves critical support for the latter bit as well, seeing as it is doing more than any other state to actively fight imperialism and the monopolarity of US hegemony.
If China is a socialist state worth supporting then I’m a donkey with a laser dick :P But I’m more anarchistically inclined
Chinese state propaganda
Pretty easy to see your views on China, which sound an awful lot like the State Department’s. If I’m reading too much into what you’re saying, tell us what you really think about the PRC.
That is the dumbest argument ever. Hitler liked dogs, liking dogs doesn’t make you a nazi. That’s not to say I agree with the US stance on China, but why would this even matter
the point was that many anarchists are indistinguishable from centrists when it comes to actual geopolitical issues, because they have internalized western propaganda about the West’s rivals
propaganda is not just lies (though some of it is actual lies), but emphasis
nothing you’ve written in this thread is a genuine engagement with people who try to refute western propaganda about the west’s rivals, and you’ve written nothing that would indicate that you’re not a liberal who just likes anarchist aesthetics with a vague handwavy criticism of “nation states”
many anarchists are indistinguishable from centrists when it comes to actual geopolitical issues
simply gotta disagree. anarchists reject empire and authority. Centrists often support imperialism so long as it is favoring their own country. Anarchists typically oppose the imperialism of their own countries more than anything else.
I’m really trying to engage with people here and I’ve conceded multiple good points. I’ve learned some things and I’m seeing new perspectives.
Also why do you care so much about finding a way to call me a liberal it’s obsessive :P
Stop with the strawmen. When did I say I agree with US propaganda? When did I say that I consider myself on the same side as the US?
Tell us how these “tankies” are “parroting” propaganda and we’ll tell you exactly how your geopolitical opinions align with the US State Dept.
For starters, right here where you showed your whole ass and said: “If China is a socialist state worth supporting then I’m a donkey with a laser dick”
You do seem to be quite a donkey but clearly it’s just overconfident false advertisement about the laser.
If China is so great then why does it feel the need to dictate over Hong Kong and Taiwan? Does China have gay marriage? Trans rights perhaps?
I’m not saying China is as bad as the West claims it is. I’m just saying it’s not something to get wild about. It’s a nation state (a far too big one at that), which are by definition tools of oppression.
The nuances of the PRC’s desire for a one china policy largely stem from the Marxist theory of Nations, along with a desire to throw off all western colonizers. Without understanding the depths of the “century of humiliation” you can’t hope to understand the desire for a unified China.
Secondly, the PRC’s process means social change comes slowly, but it has been improving. Notably, Xin Jing, a transgender woman, is one of China’s top celebrities. Change is slow, but is happening at different rates across different sections of the PRC.
Thirdly, nobody is saying the PRC is Anarchist, but your insistence that everyone agree with you saying the government is by definition a tool of oppression despite 90%+ approval rates stands at direct odds with the people themselves. Like it or not, you must face the reality that it is Marxism that has brought great improvements to China’s conditions, and these improvements are continuing at a rapid pace, and thus has widespread support.
I can face that reality I think.
All fair points, but what about Taiwan and Hong Kong? What about the treatment of minorities?
Others have done far more research on those subjects and can answer them better than I can, so rather than contribute to the spread of nonsense I will refrain from speaking outside of what I factually know.
What, specifically, are you asking about?
Hong Kong has experienced violent oppression from China when there were protests. Taiwan wants to be independent but is not recognized as such by China. While Western media has certainly exaggerated claims, there are credible reports of uyghurs being repressed. I’m not saying this behavior is worse than Western imperialist behavior. I’m saying these are imperialist behaviors, and just like the US, the Chinese government tries to cover them up or pretend they aren’t happening, or comes up with some reason for it.
What I’m saying is that there are some people who buy into that, and will shut down any criticism of it.
Could you link one that is not from Adrian Zenz or from ASPI or the US NGO-industrial complex?
Would Al Jazeera suffice? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/8/10/one-million-muslim-uighurs-held-in-secret-china-camps-un-panel
There’s a lot going on here, so I will go section by section.
The scale of the violence against protestors is exaggerated, and much of the protests were directly funded by Hong Kong bourgeoisie and Western NGOs and States, like the US. Currently, less than a quarter want independence. This is because Hong Kong was a british colony and financially is totally enmeshed with mainland China.
Both Taiwan and the PRC claim legitimate rule to the entirety of China. However, Taiwan’s historical background is as a runaway retreat for the Kuomintang, a Nationalist party that was at war with the much more popular CPC. Taiwan also serves as a staging ground for the US to exert pressure on the PRC.
This is a topic I don’t know enough about, and reserve the right not to speak. However, I will say that claims of “genocide” come from the fascist Adrian Zenz, and moreover travel to Xinjiang is open and freely permissible. In addition, Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, as all minority populations were. I cannot speak on the treatment within the re-education camps, however, as I have not done the research necessary.
When Marxists speak of Imperialism, they speak of Lenin’s definition and outlining, which refers to a specific stage in Capitalism where Industrial and Financial Capital are exported to super-exploit for super-profits. These actions by the PRC do not constitute Imperialism from that standpoint.
I am not aware of the CPC covering up or censoring discussion of these topics.
You mean the island where the fascist fled after they lost the Chinese civil war and now acts as a base of US military hegemony?
What about Hong Kong? The UK leased it after they won a colonialist war in the 19th century. The last British governor of Hong Kong was a white dude appointed from London. What about Hong Kong?
“Only 17% of Hong Kongers say they want independence from China with just 20% saying China has abused the “one country, two systems” model to favor Beijing, a Reuters poll released on December 31 shows.”
Could you give us examples?
So what? Imperialism is suddenly okay if you don’t like the ruling ideology there? That is the same logic underlying US imperialism, and coincidentally, fits the old definition of the word tankie.
You may recall protests being violently repressed.
Many uighurs have been imprisoned for example.
Also your screenshot once again, just tries to prove China is awesome, because the US is bad. I’m not trying to compare the two.
What are you trying to prove to me? That China is perfect? I know you don’t believe that.
My brother in NED, it’s not just about a “ruling ideology”, Taiwan is literally a US stronghold against China, and if you recall your geography lessons from high school, you might remember that the United States is in North America on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. If any country does imperialism on that side of the globe it’s the USA, since Taiwan is called Republic of China, and most countries don’t recognize ROC as the “true” China.
You may recall that the CIA literally foments colour revolutions against geopolitical rivals or countries who don’t swear fealty to the US. Have you heard of Jacobo Arbenz? Mossadegh? and so on?
You may recall that hours ago I literally quoted that 83% of Hongkongers want to belong to China.
The point is, since it eludes you for some reason, is that it’s pure projection from the West of accusing China of bad minority policies, when the West is worse in many many ways. Not that China is “perfect” whatever that means in real world policies, but the West want you to think China = BAD. And the only reason you do this hand-wringing about minorities in China is because US State Department think tanks implanted that thought in your head some time ago by bombarding you with anti-China propaganda.
The other point is that anarchists crying about tankies are just useful idiots, since the real threat to capitalist hegemony is the actually existing socialist countries. That’s why the FBI and the CIA was always more concerned about Leninists than about anarchists.
House passes $1.6 billion to deliver anti-China propaganda overseas
It doesn’t elude me that the West tries to paint China worse than it is. Although I have learned a thing or two today.
It doesn’t. Taiwan and Hong Kong ARE China. If anything the high level of autonomy that China allows reactionary regional governments to have is what should be criticized.
China allows for civil unions for LGBTQ. https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1162943.shtml It made civil unions legal across the nation before USA made gay marriage legal in every state. Like all places in the world (some more than others) China has a long way to go on LGBTQ rights. But that’s just it, China is improving along those lines, while the US is rapidly regressing. China is improving with trans rights and has been punishing companies that violate them. So yes, we should absolutely support China in continuing to move in the correct direction.
Lol, by whose definition? A state is only as good or bad as the ruling class that wields it. A bourgeois (capitalist) state will always be oppressive. As a socialist state (and China is a socialist state), the CPC uses its power to suppress the constant attempts of the bourgeois to oppress the working class.
Imperialism much?
That’s fair, but it’s once again an argument based entirely on comparing China to the US. The US being bad doesn’t make China good. To get back to my original argument, I’m just saying that the word ‘tankie’ refers to China or Russia simps. There is no nation in this world worth simping for.
It is imperialism to let proxy governments for the UK and US maintain a colonial foothold in China actually.
So the Taiwanese all desperately want to join the DPRC? Last I checked Taiwan was a sovereign nation. Capitalism has a foothold there but the British no longer rule there. Justifying imperialism with imperialism also doesn’t magically make it okay
No they just installed a friendly neocolonial government. Jesus Christ do some basic investigation. If the British invaded part of your hometown and installed a puppet government, would you call it imperialism for it to be taken back by your town?
by my town no. By another country overseas, yes
Please, check again
Disputes about Taiwan’s sovereignty is the most famous fact about Taiwan. You are deeply unserious.
Okay I may have worded that wrong but that is also misleading. China is a huge power (I say this is a problem as you may recall). Having diplomatic ties with China is necessary for most nations. China refuses to have diplomatic ties with anyone who recognizes Taiwan as a sovereign nation. So, everybody pretends they don’t recognize it, officially. In reality Taiwan has its own government and isn’t ruled over by China. In 1991, Taiwan/ROC even recognized the DPRC.
Wut? Oh, you think that’s imperialism? Stating the fact that Taiwan is part of China and that Hong Kong is also just a region (SAR if you even know what that is) of China? All this shows is you have no fucking clue what imperialism even is. You literally don’t know what that word means. Not by ML standards clearly, but not even by general layman standards. And it shows you know absolutely nothing about the history of this situation, which is typical of the sinophobic liberal. Taiwan is ran by a fascist nationalist government that tried to wipe out the workers movements and that still claims to be the “rightful” rulers not only of all of China but also other sovereign nations like Mongolia. And you’re saying that China allowing them to continue to operate while slowly working towards future reunification is “imperialism.” That’s just sick. Take a look at what the US via the IMF and World Bank does to impoverished global south nations (that are impoverished solely because the US impoverished them for the purpose of subjugation and unequal exchange) to begin to understand what imperialism looks like. Then come back and tell me China’s lenient position on Taiwan is “imperialism.”
Never said it did. BUT part of why China is good is because it is overtaking the US which is unambiguously bad. This is one of the many things China is doing (in this case passively, but it does a hell of a lot of active good too) that is beneficial to humanity.
I don’t know what you think “simping” for a country even means, given it’s a slang term involving romantic attraction, but if by “simping” for a nation, you mean “expressing vocal approval and ideologically supporting it,” then yes, there are nations absolutely worth “simping” for. Cuba immediately comes to mind as the obvious one. But China also deserves the vocal approval and support of leftists since it is in fact a socialist state and is in fact doing much good in the world, both for the masses of people living within it as well as for most of the rest of the world through BRI and the fact that it is undermining the actual imperialist’s ability to beat the global south into submission. Russia deserves critical support for the latter bit as well, seeing as it is doing more than any other state to actively fight imperialism and the monopolarity of US hegemony.
Pretty easy to see your views on China, which sound an awful lot like the State Department’s. If I’m reading too much into what you’re saying, tell us what you really think about the PRC.
Alright, please elaborate on your critical stance on China that is different from what is mainstream in US politics & journalism.
That is the dumbest argument ever. Hitler liked dogs, liking dogs doesn’t make you a nazi. That’s not to say I agree with the US stance on China, but why would this even matter
again, do some self crit
the point was that many anarchists are indistinguishable from centrists when it comes to actual geopolitical issues, because they have internalized western propaganda about the West’s rivals
propaganda is not just lies (though some of it is actual lies), but emphasis
nothing you’ve written in this thread is a genuine engagement with people who try to refute western propaganda about the west’s rivals, and you’ve written nothing that would indicate that you’re not a liberal who just likes anarchist aesthetics with a vague handwavy criticism of “nation states”
simply gotta disagree. anarchists reject empire and authority. Centrists often support imperialism so long as it is favoring their own country. Anarchists typically oppose the imperialism of their own countries more than anything else.
I’m really trying to engage with people here and I’ve conceded multiple good points. I’ve learned some things and I’m seeing new perspectives.
Also why do you care so much about finding a way to call me a liberal it’s obsessive :P
First step in purging your inner liberal is recognizing that you are a liberal hahaha
lmao I’ll keep searching for that inner liberal then