What is your line in the sand?
Edit: thank you all for your responses. I think it’s important as an American we take your view points seriously. I think of a North Korean living inside of North Korea. They don’t really know how bad it is because that is all hidden from them and they’ve never had anything else. As things get worse for Americans it’s important to have your voices because we will become more and more isolated.
Even the guy who said, “lol.” Some people need that sort of sobering reaction.
Never have, they are ruled by their uniparty and indeed they can’t see outside their box.
I am probably that lol guy.It’s what they call a “flawed democracy” now. It’s not at the point where thousands of people simply disappear and every aspect of political life is dictated by one party’s leadership.
But it’s sliding downward.The amount of voter suppression, the broken FPTP system and mass media influence over the US electoral system, means that for all intents and purposes, the USA federal election is just picking your favourite of the two viable owning-class-endorsed candidates. “The people” never had a realistic chance of representation or empowerment. This is not a new critique, it’s been discussed for at least a century and a half.
There is simply no real value in calling the USA a democracy at any point during our lifetimes, regardless of whether you are allowed to vote or even write-in candidates, regardless of the two-party system, because the power imbalance between the working class and the owning class surrounding that vote makes it as much a sham election as Russia’s sham elections. But even compared to other (until recently) close allies, the US implementation of federal voting has long been an absolute circus.
It hasn’t been a democracy since it had the ‘electoral college’ and unequal representation. So, forever…
But within the context of the previous status quo - I’d say it stopped being a democracy exactly when Trump was allowed to be a candidate for the presidency after the Jan 6 coup attempt, and parallel attempts to invent votes and pressure states to lie about their vote counts. Which was blatantly unconstitutional and illegal. More than enough evidence to bar him from being a candidate, and yet the senate allowed it to proceed - that was the end.
To me it never really was. If you look into how they do voting here, its insane, really.
US citizens always loved to make these “we’ll bomb some democracy in to you” but they never brought democracy either. I think it’s fair to say that no other country started asa y dictatorships as the US has
Add to that;
Bush lost the election and became president anyway.
Trump has heen successfully lying his way through the past four years (and well, yeah the 4 years before that too) instigated an insurrection and was never held accountable
So many people not reading the “people outside the US” part.
I am outside the US, not a citizen, just someone whose life constantly seems to be affected by shitty US politics
One interesting thing I haven’t read here yet (haven’t read all the comments though) is religion. Sure, officially there’s separation of church and state, but Christianity is everywhere in your country, including government. The amount of times I’ve heard “God bless the United States” being said is ridiculous. To me, that’s undemocratic and I would feel very uncomfortable with that as an atheist.
Yeah, it’s a cheap knock off Christianity, too. It’s just there for the subjugation of people who cannot be bothered to think for themselves.
Christianity Lol
No my friend these people worship Mammon. They were taught to believe it was god
Of course you would be uncomfortable with that because you’re an atheist… You’re an atheist. The US has freedom of religion, this freedom also applies to government officials.
I never considered it a democracy. It’s one-party system with two parties, what can be democratic about it? Smoke and mirrors.
If a presidential candidate can lose an election and still become president, it’s not a democracy.
Why should all the densely populated urban centers be the only people with control over the federal election?
I barely considered it a democracy as a two party system as the elites controlled it all, but now it’s just even more messed up. They need to hold people accountable and not elect criminals to office.
I fear for the future of America as a country.
Nope, it’s an oligarchy pretending it’s a democracy.
Absolutely not. When laws don’t apply to the president, the jig is up. Trump clearly plans to be in power forever. Either there won’t be elections or they’ll be rigged.
all those images of venezualen immigrants … being handled like the absolute worst possible being… its crazy
When was the US the last time a democracy?
You can vote democrats or republicans, which mostly get bankrolled by the same rich assholes. As a normal citizen of the US you have almost no influence at politics at all, because the media is controlled by rich people, the biggest internet platforms are controlled by rich people, elections are paid for by rich people, …
The current situation is not a spontaneous, miraculous, magical result of Trump and his gang, it was years in the making by lobby groups, influential/rich/powerful people and neo liberal brainwashing of the masses.
Same holds true for most other western so called democracies.
Canadian here.
Before Trump? Ehhh, not really. I’ve always viewed the US as a place where you vote for which oligarch-backed monarch you’d want to put in absolute power for 4 years. Every 4/8 years the new incoming overlord just rips up whatever the previous one did and nothing of substance is actually achieved.
After Trump 2.0? No. There isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that Trump is going to surrender all that power he and the GOP have accumulated. And why would he? He doesn’t have to. He literally controls every branch of government that he can and ignores those that he doesn’t. If the US ever has another election it will purely be for show, like China’s elections. The mask is now fully off and the charade of US democracy is over as those who actually wield the power now do so openly on their sleeves.
China’s democracy is among party members.
Oh I love parties! I’ll bring the glowsticks!
Never have
Absolutely not. A two party system was barely nominally a form of democracy. Current government walks like a dictatorship and quacks like a dictatorship. They might hold a fake election one day like many of those do, but still no.
Firstly, the USA is obviously not a “dictatorship”. Come on, be serious. Words mean things.
Second, America’s two-party system also has internal factions and primaries, many of them completely open (you don’t even need to declare allegiance to the party). The primaries are effectively the first round in a two-round electoral system (of which there are plenty in the world). The whole point is to create a binary choice in the final round. For some reason this always gets missed by otherwise informed observers. “There are only two parties” is just not a valid argument in this debate.
Of course, none of these facts will be popular here, since the real point of this thread is to allow participants to performatively dump on the shared hate-object. Classic social media, I get it.
Firstly, the USA is obviously not a “dictatorship”.
You sure about that? Have you read the news lately?
Yeah I have and saying that kinda just makes you seem uninformed.
Like the people who call the US “a 3rd world country in a Gucci belt”. It just makes it super obvious that you don’t understand how high quality of a life the average person has in the US. Especially globally.
I’m not going to list all the red flags, but there is a reason people feel like this. A few major ones, president talking about taking over other countries out of the blue, attacking our allies to the point where Americans are suffering much more than necessary, his sidekick doing Nazi salutes on stage, literal commercials for his $idekick on the white house lawn.
It’s pretty clear there is no rule of law for blatant corruption and no accountability. Replace USA/Trump with Russia/Putin or NK/Un, guess what, same shit, different smell. Either follow orders or get shipped out is the example they’re trying to set, as well as making free speech illegal.
We’re FAR from a functioning democracy.
Well think about a lot of the characteristics of the US and maybe you’ll at least see where they’re coming from. It’s not about 100% accuracy as much as perspective. And it seems like it’d hard to shatter illusions some people there have.
High poverty rate compared to developed countries, low literacy rates compared to developed countries, Highly authoritarian, highly propagandised, militia compounds spread throughout.
You you can be taken and imprisoned in a desert camp, fed expired food, put in a chain gang and not that it would be OK otherwise, but you haven’t been convicted of a crime.
Constant terrorist attacks.
You can be put in solitary until you have psychosis and youre smearing feces on the walls, and then the confessions you give after that can be used in court.
There was a mass protest of slave Labour and the slaves were starved until they went back to work.
You can be disappeared and have your residency revoked for protesting war crimes. You had someone who worked in your torture camps run to be a candidate for president and they got far.
Child marriage is legal.
People are sent back to a polluted industrial hazard town after train derailment and all the animals are dead and they’re complaining of chemical burns. If they complain the get dragged out by cops.
Food standards not accepted elsewhere. Companies can poison large parts of the population and even if they’re punished its an amount that still means the profited from it
They took a guy who promoted health misinformation that led to dead kids and they put him in charge of health, even though a worm ate his brain.
Expansionist, aggressive, worships the military but fucks over veterans, complains about first responders injured on the job getting health care, so they scrapped it. Constantly chasing culture was BS, never quite left the satanic panic.
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The USA is categorized by people who have studied this subject more closely than you (or me) as a flawed democracy. This is a dumb discussion. That’s all I have to say here.
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I don’t discuss with people who downvote my comments. You clearly don’t care what I have to say. Good night.
How do we see who downvotes?
I know they had that on kbin but not Lemmy. I want to see it too. Which client or frontend are you using?
I just extrapolated. Their comment was posted at the same time as a downvote.
If they denied it I would apologize.
I don’t discuss with people who downvote my comments.
So you only discuss with yourself?
You clearly don’t care what I have to say.
There is some truth in that, I only pay attention to people who have a valid point.
In practice, however, it is a two-party system.
Its not about popular. You are simply wrong.
The primaries that are not required to be democratic and can simply be rigged by the party?
I wouldn’t call America a dictatorship yet, but I would claim that it is heading there at a rapid pace. Trump and Republicans actions such as disregarding the Constitution, removing rights, beginning mass deportations including legals, bringing in a billionaire to shred the government, and ignoring court orders is not a good look for a democratic government.
Yes, I know all that and I completely agree. It’s all but impossible to imagine that the USA will ever be an actually dictatorship, despite the ignorant shrieking around here. Because of its traditions of individual freedom and federalism.
But it’s obviously looking less and less like democracy.
While I don’t consider the system of governance there very good, I’ll have to agree. While I do absolutely worry for the American democracy, it isn’t a dictatorship in its current form. I also agree that the primaries do make the system better and more democratic. I still think that the two part system is abysmal, but the primaries do make the claim to democracy stronger.
That’s a balanced and fair-minded take. Unfortunately it won’t be appreciated here, because what people are looking for in this thread is catharsis and confirmation of their biases.
The US had always been a questionable democracy with the hyperfixation on the president and just two parties setting the agenda, but I’d argue that it’s still a democracy, though it is a rapidly deteriorating one.
