I dream of an open source car. Something simple but reliable, say a legally-distinct 2004 Honda Accord, bog standard, no frills, no detail package options, just A Cheap Car with standardized parts and open source software. It’s the only car the company makes, you can buy one for 10k or build your own for 6k out of parts and a couple months worth of weekends, car nerds will fork the software for infinite tuning customization, and it doesn’t report your location back to headquarters. Parts are standardized across every car we’ve ever made so your local parts store will have them in stock. The new model year is the same car as last year, we just built some fresh ones for people to buy new.
I have no way of making this dream a reality. But I dream of it nonetheless. American car culture has gone off the rails, and the number of people I see already driving around old 5-owner Hondas and Toyotas and Buicks tells me that there is definitely a market for a cheap basic car that runs.
That would have been the Sono Sion, but there was too little interest. Not enough preorders meant they ran out of money to continue development.
Off topic: I’d argue Love Exposure by Sion Sono is the best movie ever made.
Creating a FOSS EV is all do-able right now with off the shelf motors and batteries. Welding a frame would take some skill. How to title it would depend on the local government rules; many states in the US have a kit car designation for this sort of thing, but not all do.
If it’s built rigid like a race car with a roll cage, four-point harness, and at least a DOT rated helmet for everyone inside (if not Snell), it could be safer then most cars on the road. If it’s not very large, then it’s probably safer for pedestrians and bicycles, too.
I don’t expect air bags to be viable. It takes a lot of tuning to get them right, and they can be worse than nothing if not done right (they’re basically a controlled explosion). However, the race car-like design above, plus helmets, would keep you safer than any air bag. Road cars converted to track cars often disable or remove the air bags. The rules of the event may even require it. They’re counterproductive dead weight when you’re packed in this way.
Other creature comforts are going to be what you put into it, but keep in mind that many of the things we take for granted in modern cars–A/C, stereos, padded seats, etc.–add a whole lot of weight.
What also adds weight is how many passengers you want to carry at once. Two passengers won’t add much weight, but four or more would. All that extra frame material adds up.
Building a traditional frame would take some welding skills. I have just enough welding skills to make some shelves, but anything structural (which my tutor defined as “anything where somebody’s life depends on the weld holding”) is not something I’m comfortable doing. That is to say, it’ll take more than a quick tutorial and a little practice.
However, one interesting possibility is epoxy. Lotus did this for the Elise, and I once tracked down the epoxy manufacturer they use (I’d have to search around to find it again, though). The instructions for it didn’t seem to need anything particularly out of reach for a hobbyist (doesn’t need a big autoclave or anything like that). Lotus did reinforce certain sections with bolts/rivets. It will take some knowledge to design a frame around this, but it’s one time design work by an engineer and then everyone can copy it.
One advantage Lotus had over a welded frame was thinner material. A weld itself is very strong, but it weakens the metal around it (meaning you usually get breaks around the weld, not on it). You have to use thicker metal to compensate for that. Since Lotus was using an epoxy, they could use thinner material for less weight, and it was stronger in the end.
Since it’s also getting rid of a whole lot of weight around the frame, the range you get out of those batteries could be extreme. It could also be extremely quick with a modest motor.
This is basically all to say that you can have any three: safe, creature comforts, enough space for passengers, range.
Yeah I want my autonomous electric town car to be fully open. We should be able to have sustainable cars if any cars at all. Cars you can’t easily repair or maintain are not sustainable.
I assume car manufacturers would try to stop this by saying people would just load up video games or netflix on their dashboards while they drive. Even though you could probably do that now already, if you really wanted to.
Hell, I could just bolt a laptop to the dash if I really wanted that
Why jump to laptop when tablets are right there? Just chuck one of these chungus fuckers onto some velcro mounts…https://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/tablets/galaxy-view/samsung-galaxy-view-18-4-32gb-wi-fi-black-sm-t670nzkaxar/
Yeah, but who wants their car to look like a Tesla? ;)
What do you mean? You still have your dash cluster!
Car dependency is a dead end. It’s inherently wasteful, privileged, inefficient, unsustainable, unhealthy, etc. I would much rather have free, extensive, public transit and safe infrastructure for pedestrians, bikes, and light EVs.
Tell us you don’t live in the US without telling us you don 't live in the US.
I live in the U.S. That comment is 100% true, no matter where one lives.
Or anywhere relatively rural. I just got home from a long weekend in rural Minnesota/Wisconsin, and there’s literally no viable way to run public transit out there in a manner that wouldn’t either be so restrictive as to be useless, or would lose so much money it would be first on the block for service cuts (and therefore become useless). I’m talking “town of 600 residents, most people live on unincorporated county land on a farmstead, and the only grocery store in a 50 mile radius is a Dollar General” rural. Asking these folks to give up cars is an insane prospect.
Paved roads don’t just naturally occur, though. That lifestyle is already an insane prospect, unsustainabke but for the large tax subsidy required to enable it.
Building out transit and infrastructure takes time. In the meanwhile, people still have to get places.
And isn’t necessarily the best approach
I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but continuing to say that as a reason not to work towards that goal makes no sense
Great, lmk when there’s a regular train from Boston to my office in Boxborough, which currently requires it’s residents to drop off their own trash at the facility. I’m sure that’ll be frequent and efficient right?
In general for me, I think mission critical systems breaks, engine etc should be physically isolated from the infotainment system. Infotainment systems should also prioritize using off the shelf hardware and running stuff like android, also prioritize android auto and apple car play, since these can be updated without automaker input for the most part.
Cars should just come with a big open socket up front, where I can buy (or build) my own infotainment system to install there. That way I can replace it over the course of the car’s lifetime. Or, give me the option to just plug it up or install a traditional car radio or something. I should be able to cram an 8-track player in if I want.
Keep all automobile controls as physical buttons, knobs, and levers.
I haven’t owned a car in over 10 years, but whenever I look at what’s available, I can’t get past how much planned obsolescence is baked into newer cars. I would never buy one…
If automakers focused on cars, and let tech companies and focus on building the infotainment systems, we’d have better choices and less vendor lock-in.
Cars should just come with a big open socket up front, where I can buy (or build) my own infotainment system to install there.
…which is precisely what we used to have, before auto makers decided to insist that they should be enclosed in a swooping dash.
I’d be fine with a reinvention of the modular system with more digital I/O and connections to other features of the car. Let me buy something like a “Samsung Galaxy Drive” infotainment dash that embodies the “swooping dash” concept, or let me buy a pre-built shell that I can build out like a custom PC.
I can cram my car full of corporate apps, or I can run it on Linux. I would love to have the choice.
Any future self-driving capabilities need to be inside of their own dedicated system like an aircraft autopilot.
I mean, the DIN hole was a standard size but it certainly wasn’t a ‘socket’ and anyone who had a Ford Focus that needed a Mercedes-Benz writing harness to plug up their aftermarket radio knows what I’m on about.
That was also the point of Apple CarPlay/Android auto. Let the manufacturer provide the hardware but your phone can run the infotainment. Let actual software companies do that, instead of the horrible mess that car manufacturers make out of software
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I may be weird but why would you need an infotainment system at all? I have all the infotainment I could possibly want in my phone, the car is only needed as a Bluetooth speaker and for standard playback controls.
The car screen is significantly bigger than the phone screen, making it quicker to glance at it for driving instructions.
But now we’re just coming back to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I just want a big screen with physically touchable controls for those. My previous car did exactly that, but now I’ve gone near two decades older so I now get a fancy screen with no functionality beyond FM radio and DVD video lol
Phones are supported well beyond their average ownership lifetime.
Are they?
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Many now. Up until recently it was pretty common for manufacturers to leave you SOL after 2 major Android releases.
Supported in the sense that “We will update your device and deliberately slow it, break it, or brick it because fuck you.”
By communities, but not the manufacturer. Custom ROMs is the only way to keep it up to date for long enough for the hardware to become too old to be worth it.
No custom ROM for cars anytime soon.
There’s plenty of custom ROMs for cars from all major manufacturers, you just don’t know where to look.Google “ECU remap” or “dpf delete” for an idea. ECU remapping has been done by bold individuals ever since there were programmable ECUs, around 1985.
Apart from engine/drive line tinkering, there are also plenty of third party software that can tinker with body computers for “lifestyle” adjustments.
Is it easy and accessible? No. Because of environmental laws - and vendor lock in - you can’t generally and easily dick around with the control software in your car. But it does exist.
I know, but there us as quiet war going on between the chippers and manufacturers. EV is a new battle front and we the consumers are losing right now.
Law makes need to join this century and get involved ensuring competition and longer product lives.
My hunch is that “average ownership lifetime” for mobile phones is MUCH lower than you or I (or anyone who is careful with their phone) probably expects. There is probably a too-big segment of the market that is trading in yearly for a newer model.
And this is why I drive a 1980 Volkswagen rabbit pickup. better gas mileage then modern cars (50mpg+ on the highway) I can replace about any part in it for under a few hundred in most cases even a new engine can be done under 1000. And everything is dead simple to work on no fancy computers or anything.
Polluting as hell though, or so I imagine?
Even in Sweden catalysators were not mandatory before like 1986 IIRC.
The rest is awesome though 👍😎
And what are the pollution costs of even manufacturing a new vehicle, VS one that’s already in place?
We can’t manufacture our way to using fewer resources.
We can’t manufacture our way to using fewer resources.
Why not? Seems like a pretty simple formula: if it costs X amount of resources or pollution to save Y amount of resources or pollution per unit time, the break-even point is whenever Y times time exceeds X.
You can, though. There are many lifecycle analyses using actual data to calculate the tradeoff point.
Oh yea it’s a straight pipe diesel ain’t anything good for the environment gonna put a slightly more modern engine in it at some point for some more power the 1.6l in it currently only makes like 50 horse so when I do that it’ll be a little better but still not great
Well there are a bunch of reliable late 90s and early 2000s German engines that would make that thing ridiculously fast compared to now, pollute less, burn less fuel, and would be pretty easy to maintain.
Long as you avoid all the ones with known pitfalls and research standalone ECU options first of course.
I’m partial to Mercedes engineering myself, I’d tell you to use an OM646. But there’s nothing wrong with an M47 or a VW 1.9 tdi either. The PD version of the tdi is slightly more complex than the oldschool versions (66 and 81 kW), but would get you ridiculous performance and fuel economy considering how little your car weighs.
Of course if you had more space in there, I’d suggest an OM648 or M57, but I don’t think you’d get an inline 6 to fit. MAYBE an OM647 since it’s an inline 5?
You can get a inline 5 in it cause I know you can fit a o7k or a vr6 lol. my plan was to swap it to a TDI I actually have an 01 TDI sitting here for it just don’t have the money currently to finish it but once i do, this TDI is actually supped up some pushing 20+ psi of boost not the I will probably run that much since I plan to daily it but it can
How about those crumple zones? Feel safe in your passenger cage? Hope you’re shorter than the dashboard in case of a rollover. Don’t have to worry about getting hit by those airbags, do you? Imagine that steering column spearing through your chest
New cars aren’t just about the latest infotainment, gadgets, and design. There have been huge improvements in pollution control and safety. There has also been huge improvements in efficiency, even if they’re masked by the increased weight of safety improvements, increased performance, and generally much larger size. So far a lot of that increased complexity is well worth it - I’ll never have another car without anti-lock brakes
New cars aren’t just about the latest infotainment, gadgets, and design.
They mostly are, companies don’t care to innovate anymore, only to sell.
There have been huge improvements in pollution control and safety.
Safety? Some, sure. Pollution? The only reason governments regulate is because car companies want to sell you a new car every year. Ooops, big bad government whom we happen to have in our pocket wants Euro5 now…
…even if they’re masked by the increased weight of safety improvements, increased performance, and generally much larger size.
More weight/size = more raw materials, is it really that good for the environment?
If companies and governments are so keep on being green (they’re not) they’d ensure cars are easily repairable and upgradable. And they’d keep supporting older models - design a more efficient engine to replace the one in the older car why won’t they?
That’s the only reason I bought a modern car.
My parents would always buy cheap beaters. They had a car from the 90s they only recently got rid of because the transmission was shot. My first car was an '05 Caravan I drove for almost two years and got rid of in 2018.
I swallowed the pill after seeing cars get absolutely crushed to the point where the jaws of life were necessary yet passengers could just walk out.
I remember someone posted a picture of their brand new sedan. It was involved in a serious accident and sandwiched between two large pickup trucks. The entire car was squished down until it was smaller than the passenger compartment. The driver was able to walk away with minor injuries and the paramedics weren’t even surprised.
I don’t give a shit about the fancy features. I just want something that is reliable and safe.
Wellllll… you rip all that computerized shit out, disconnect the ECU out and strap a carburetor on the engine and make the car what it should have been all along, an entirely mechanical machine.
Nothing wrong with ECUs and other electronics as long as it’s not designed to fuck you. Computerized regulation of engine processes is a good thing, locking things down and making them unrepairable is bad.
Hell, I’d be happy with the manufacturers ensuring buggy ECU software is kept properly up-to-date. Long story short I spent months dealing with dying batteries in a pre-owned Honda CR/V that I bought from a dealer. After multiple dealer visits, jumpstarts from AAA, etc. I finally found references to two recall notices on my own that described my symptoms perfectly. The only problem was that my cars VIN wasn’t in the list of those affected by the recalls.
I took printouts of the recall notices to the dealer, and they agreed it sounded like issue I was having. They updated the ECU software and I never had battery issues any more as long as I had that car.
Someone surely tried this on a Tesla by now…
Locked bootloaders should be illegal. Manufacturers should have to provide enough specs that third parties can write code that runs on the hardware.
Manufacturers should have to provide enough specs that third parties can write code that runs on the hardware.
“But Crowdstrike” would probably be an argument against.
“Security” as an excuse for self-serving bullshit isn’t new.
Sure, there’s a risk of breaking things. I can do that with a hacksaw and a soldering iron too, and it’s widely recognized that it isn’t up to the manufacturer of the thing to keep me from breaking it. We need the same understanding for devices that depend on software.
When you car can connect to the Internet, it becomes a data-mining tool that tells everyone your business. Companies would LOVE to have all that juicy location data that only Google has right now (from your phones). Insurance companies would LOVE to know your driving habits to have any excuse at all to jack up your premiums.
You don’t need a computer in a car, especially an electric one. Sure, you want some electronics, but do you think 1970s milk floats had computers in them. Today’s EVs are basically the same thing with better motors and batteries.
Software control should be kept for luxury aspects of the vehicle. Nothing critical.
I have never heard of a vehicle that was referred to as a milk float, ever. What they is?!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float
Basically how milk men would deliver fresh milk to your doorstep in the early hours of the morning.
Software control should be kept for luxury aspects of the vehicle. Nothing critical.
Tesla would disagree, lol. But then again, for the price, the whole car is a luxury.
Go to hell Elon
I think people are missing the fact that the features of this VW are going away because they run on 3G. What can a car manufacturer do? Correct me if I’m wrong, you can’t just drop a new antenna to fix the problem.
Cars routinely last 15 years and that’s geologic time compared to tech. This isn’t just a problem of greed or lack of foresight.
What can they do? How about making the cellular models modular? 3G goes bust? Swap the modem for a 4G one next time the car is in for service.
What’s wrong with just a pot box, a motor and some batteries?
That doesn’t seem to have anything which will manage your heated seat subscription or data mine your driving activity.
Hehe. Ok. Add an inverter and an electric blaket under the seat cover :)
The main issue is that the NHSTA requires a backup camera, which requires a screen. Since they have to make room for that screen, manufacturers now want to make it a premium thing they can use to justify up charging.
I don’t see a solution to this until someone actually tries to make things cheap again and small screens become the trend.
Is that a new rule? For all cars?
If by “new” you mean decided a decade ago and implemented 6 years ago, then yes.
I didn’t know. Maybe it’s not a law in Australia or I just haven’t been paying attention as my '96 Magna is still going fine.
Luckily modern cars are generally a lot safer to drive than your old magna. Air bags (not new, just better), crumble zones, automatic emergency braking, lane assist/departure warning etc. have come a really long way in the past 30 years. They’re not only less likely to be in major crashes, they’re also safer for both people in the car and outside the car (bikes/pedestrians) if it happens.
Apparently Australia only got around to it last year, but they’re requiring it to be implemented a lot faster.
TIL. Thanks.
That’s what I like about CarPlay. Just give me a dumb screen with CarPlay compatibility. I’ll get new features with my phone upgrades. The rest of the car could be mechanical for all I care. I prefer cable clutches anyway.
A clutch? What’s that? /s
Hehe. I’ve just got a Sony Bluetooth speaker sitting on the dash. For poddies it’s good enough.
Had similar in my old car, honestly a decent Bluetooth speaker will be better than a lot of old, stock car speakers would be anyway.
Profit. They can add all those features and charge significant higher margins. The same as the bigger the car the bigger the profit so they push huge SUVs and pickups on everyone.
Can you buy a TV based on the same basic functions like you list there?
Maybe a USB DVB-T adapter plugged into a laptop or phone is about as close as you can get now.
Or an older set top box, but not so old that it can’t handle MP4.
If only. They are more like rolling SmartTVs. Once they stop getting updates, only the offline features will work.
Please tell me someone thought about a switch to take them offline.
Then whatever is fucked in the electronics will be fucked forever.
Just like it has been for the last 20 years or so.
It’s not a computer if it can’t run doom. And I look forward for Linux variants specific to vehicles.
this should be part of car safety and legislated by the govt, no?
in the uk it would be part of the MOT to see that your software is up to date and working
Just like they legislate vehicle size, headlight brightness, and enforce fuel economy standards?
