I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy’s massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It’s been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let’s say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they’re what’s colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn’t be much of an issue if they didn’t regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, …

As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.

I posted a comment in this thread linking to “https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs” (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren’t widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the “Be nice and civil” rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.

This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:

Definitely a trend there wouldn’t you say?

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Proof:

So many of you will now probably think something like: “So what, it’s the fediverse, you can use another instance.”

The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they’re not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it’s rather pointless sitting for example in /c/linux@some.random.other.instance.world where there’s nobody to discuss anything with.

I’m not sure if there’s a solution here, but I’d like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.

  • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
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    I’m not sure if there’s a solution here, but I’d like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.

    Did that months ago; defederated completely when they turned into Lemmygrad-lite. At first I missed some more active FOSS communities, but since then, others on different instances have become more active. programming.dev has a lot of communities that overlap with some of the bigger FOSS ones on .ml so maybe check out what they’ve got.

    If there’s a community that only exists there, be the change you want to see: create it somewhere else, nurture it, and give it time to grow. You’re not the only one making this complaint about .ml, and you probably won’t be the last.

    Related: I genuinely feel that ml being the official or at least de-facto flagship instance is turning people away.

    Edit: Oh yeah. Didn’t recognize your username at first, but I was looking at the modlog the other day from my LW account, and saw a bunch of individual community bans from Dessalines and wondered what was up. Figured it was something exactly like this, and it was. Thanks for sharing.

    • Blaze@reddthat.com
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      If there’s a community that only exists there, be the change you want to see: create it somewhere else and give it time to grow. You’re not the only one making this complaint about .ml, and you probably wont’ be the last.

      Maybe we should open a thread on !fedigrow@lemm.ee about this

        • Blaze@reddthat.com
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          What? I thought I pinged you there a while ago! Anyway, have a look, there should be some topics you might find interesting

          • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
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            May have been my LW account? I mostly use it for my mod role, but I’ll switch to it sometimes and browse all there to look for new communities I might like. Perhaps it was that account and I only interacted from there? (My memory is terrible these days 😆)

            • Blaze@reddthat.com
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              I don’t remember, you’ll see a post with a lot of pings, one of your accounts should be there 😄

              • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
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                Did you ping in the post body or comments? I learned a month or two ago from someone that mentions only generate a notification if they’re in the comments.

                • Blaze@reddthat.com
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                  I made sure to ping in the comment for this reason. Actually now I’m curious, let me have a look

    • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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      Related: I genuinely feel that ml being the official or at least de-facto flagship instance is turning people away.

      I had actually considered Lemmy before The Great Reddit Exodus. Lemmy.ml turned me off from that.

      Now we have Kbin (you can make it, my love!) and Lemmy.world, and I feel much better.

      • OpenStars@discuss.online
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        I… don’t think Kbin.social is going to make it. Even if it comes back, too much trust has been lost. Ernst should have stuck to just working on his coding project, not also administering his own instance, b/c that carries with it a certain level of “always-on” responsibility - e.g. I have unfortunately had to block Kbin.social lately, b/c nearly all (>>99%) of the spam that I currently see on the Fediverse was coming from the communities on it. Since I blocked it, I think I’ve seen like 1 single spam post for the past month.

        So Kbin.social is turning people away too, for different reasons.

        Mbin seems healthy though?:-)

        • Cloudless ☼@lemmy.cafe
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          I want to use Mbin, but all Mbin instances are federated with tankie instances, including hexbear.

          And Mbin doesn’t make it easy to see user/community instance.

          • OpenStars@discuss.online
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            I gave up on the Kbin/Mbin style entirely - it sounds nice to Federate with both Lemmy and Mastodon, but I don’t like the interface.

            Can you not do personal user instance blocks like you can in Lemmy as of v0.19.3 half a year ago? That would be an absolute deal breaker for me too. On Kbin.social though it was not an issue bc they were defederated at the instance level.

      • BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
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        I really want Kbin to succeed, but Ernest seems to see the project as something he checks on once every few months and then ignores, but he still seems to want to be the only one who gets to make decisions. I get that he has stuff going on in his life, but the solution to all these problem starts with communicating and working with the community, not disappearing for months at a time and refusing to work with the people who try to help him. You just can’t have a successful project with an approach like that.

        • Draconic NEO@lemmy.world
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          That’s why things have largely continued with mbin. Ernest couldn’t do it, so someone else who could has taken over for him.

    • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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      Is it possible to see who is behind a mod action? I’ve figured something like world news on ml has some compromised fascist actors as mods but if it’s the main creator doing this then that’s crazy

      • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
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        There’s an instance level setting to hide moderator names from unauthenticated and/or non-mod users. They probably have that enabled. Those actions federate, though, so the mod names won’t be hidden if viewed from an instance that doesn’t hide the mod names.

    • Nothing4You@programming.dev
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      It should be noted that the (visibility of) community bans are a result of better enforcement of site bans in 0.19.4, which for now is implemented by sending out community bans for local communities when a user gets instance banned: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/4464

      Prior to this, when a user got instance banned from .ml, they were also implicitly banned from .ml communities, but this was only known to the instance they were banned on. As a result, users were still able to post, comment, and vote on those communities, but it would be visible only on that user’s instance, not federated anywhere else. Visibility of this ban was exclusively on the banning instance’s modlog.

      fyi @SpaceCadet@feddit.nl

    • Victor@lemmy.world
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      programming.dev has a lot of communities

      Is there a way to search for/browse communities on a single instance?

        • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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          It is actually tomorrow but there’s a bug that causes the cake symbol to appear a day early in the default UI, because 2024 is a leap year.

          • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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            Haha thank you for the info, I have been quite confused about this. At first I thought it was because it was already tomorrow in Australia, but then I checked a world clock and it wasn’t even close 😅

  • kbal@fedia.io
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    Rule 1: Crushing people with tanks is fine so long as it’s our side doing it.

    Literal fucking tankies. I wonder if they will ever come to their senses. Oh well, it’s not as if there aren’t Nazi instances somewhere on fedi as well.

    • themoonisacheese@sh.itjust.works
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      A hexbear in that thread is literally claiming that “the soldiers did everything they could to avoid hurting him” when there’s a photo of him lying dead on the street after the tanks have gone through. They don’t think it’s fine, they’re saying it didn’t happen (curious)

      • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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        Was it actually him? I was under the impression that history did not relate what happened to him afterwards, nor who he was. That’s not to say the CCP did not murder a couple of thousand people during the crackdown regardless, because they did, but I have never seen a verifiable claim that a picture of any particular corpse actually was the Tank Man. There are numerous theories I’ve seen floated over the years alleging what may have happened to him afterwards ranging from him being caught and imprisoned, executed, living anonymously in China, or fleeing to Taiwan. All of them are unverified and, of course, mutually exclusive.

        The tank operators absolutely did attempt to (and succeeded at) avoid running him over. That much is plainly visible in the video. Whatever happened after the video ended is undocumented and pure conjecture. Plenty of well documented atrocities actually were committed that day, before and after that moment, so there’s not much sense in inventing new ones and bickering over details we haven’t actually got.

      • Microw@lemm.ee
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        That photo (I’ve seen it circulate on the internet myself) is a photoshop. Every reputable source says that no one knows what happened to that man, and we have no evidence whatsoever of him getting run over.

      • feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world
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        He is bundled off to the left by other protestors, nobody knows what happened to him, there is no photo of him dead.

      • sudo@programming.dev
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        This loony bullshit is why tankies go full useful idiot and parrot shit most of them know isn’t true. The right-wing disinfo about Tianamen square - or any other communist atrocity - is so widespread. Tankies think that the most ultra counter-narrative will somehow combat that even if its just as loony.

      • katy ✨@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        A hexbear in that thread is literally claiming that “the soldiers did everything they could to avoid hurting him”

        ah the trolly problem defence

    • Microw@lemm.ee
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      Crushing people with tanks

      Just a heads up, while it is established that the CCCP killed tons of people on that day, the idea that people were crushed with tanks is disputed in academia and mostly considered inaccurate news reporting.

      The famous “tank man” photo shows a guy standing in front of a tank in order to prevent them from moving tanks to another part where the protesters had gone. We have no evidence that he was driven over by that tank.

      • retrospectology@lemmy.world
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        Those “academics” are wrong.

        We know this because there are photos of bodies and bicycles smeared into a paste [Source. Warning Blood/Gore].

        And because people who were there literally said that’s what happened:

        "The shooting was going on and people were still running to try and block the tanks, which were travelling at high speed, some positioning buses in the road. But the tanks crushed the buses and people, they didn’t care. People’s bodies were merged, moulded to their bicycles. They were flat.” [Source: Shao Jiang to The Mirror]

        The CCP has desperately tried to cleanse the most brutal images and interviews of the massacre from the Internet, but even 30 years on they can’t completely scrub it clean. There’s a reason The Pillar of Shame monument is designed as it is.

        • Որբունի@jlai.lu
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          No but the red paste is most likely explained by the tanks that were verifiably there. They could have crushed people with other machinery but they had tanks.

  • aleph@lemm.ee
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    I’ve defended lemmy.ml in the past when people have blamed the entire instance for the actions of a solitary, overzealous moderator, but this genuinely concerns me:

    This must have been action taken at the instance admin level, considering all those communities have different moderators.

    Is there any way to probe the modlog to see which account it was?

    • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
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      I can’t see those, specifically, but a similar pattern of mass community bans after even remotely criticizing an authoritarian regime is completely on brand for Dessalines.

      I don’t have record of the comment that triggered these, but when it’s something like civility, it’s usually just a comment removal and maybe a single community ban.

      More of Dessalines getting his stanky tankie tightie-whities in a bunch

      Dessalines bans people

      • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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        Imagine that - a white dude who appropriates the moniker of an actual slave revolutionary as a symbol for his “cause” might be cringe and unhinged.

        • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
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          Interesting.

          Still, site bans for criticizing China is just as bad, if not worse as mass community banning.

          • sudneo@lemm.ee
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            Yes, but that fact is well known and at least this shows there was no particular intention to chastise the user - it was just a button press.

            • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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              The punishment was easy, so the intent wasn’t as great. You know, the difference between a bullet to the head and repeated bashing with a rock. I’m sure in all these instances, the lack of effort was a relief to the target of the action.

              • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                Every point can be supported with an analogy bad enough

    • Eldritch@lemmy.world
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      Gonna put this out there. Ended up in a thread on ML the other day. The poster/admin got a little unhinged, over 4 down votes. 4. Took to the admin panel to see who dared down vote him. Convinced he had been the victim of the tiniest not swarm ever.

      1000001794

      It’s troubling behavior for anyone with power.

      • Hubi@lemmy.world
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        Downvotes are public on Lemmy fyi. There are interfaces that show who voted on a post or comment.

      • Pili@lemmy.world
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        You gotta admit, it’s very suspicious to be massively downvoted (25, not 4) over an inconspicuous comment that merely highlights a few paragraphs of the linked article.

        I know I would also be wondering if there was a pattern in the origin of those downvotes.

    • FaceDeer@fedia.io
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      I would imagine that if an admin is doing this the modlog could simply be faked, you wouldn’t be able to trust anything that the instance is reporting to the outside world.

    • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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      This is actually more evidence that the Lemmy devs run a modified version of the code which gives them the ability to, eg do things like dole out mass community bans. There is also some evidence that they selectively federate the mod log as well. It all points to the obvious conclusion that these people can and will abuse their power in any way they can.

        • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk
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          Yes, an admin probably has access to community level moderation rights and the lemmy API is not difficult to figure out.

          It would be trivial to come up with a script to go through the community page, get all the current communities and iterate through them banning a user in each of them.

      • Որբունի@jlai.lu
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        I have had comments removed and could never see why. Now I just block their instances.

        They roleplay as communist censors since that’s all they can afford to do from their positions.

    • kuato@lemmy.world
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      Only admins can do site bans. What you’re seeing is a hacky/temporary feature of the upcoming Lemmy v19.4, of which lemmy.ml is running the pre-release: when an admin bans someone from the site (temp or otherwise), it also automatically bans them from any community they have ever participated in. Lemmy.ml has always been the “beta” instance for new releases.

      • sudneo@lemm.ee
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        Tbh, also harass a mod. People get quite worked out when being moderated, and being a mod is enough work without people chasing you to argue with you or straight up harass you, I suppose. At least, I can see plenty of good reasons to hide the moderator name.

          • sudneo@lemm.ee
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            What does this have to do with showing mod log? Genuinely confused

              • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                It does, but it’s an online forum, not an essential service, and easy to replace. On the other hand, being there with your name or nickname exposes you to harassment from those pissed at you for your decision.

                I would say it’s an acceptable evil given the circumstances.

                As a side note: asking why after a mod action is almost universally pointless. Moderating is free work and a level of subjectivity is implied. I think not having the ability to argue is infuriating but understandable.

                • Որբունի@jlai.lu
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                  My experience with them is you can’t even find the modlog if you look when they remove comments. I guess they don’t federate it and/or it only shows if you’re logged in?

                  Good incentives to block their instances.

        • Neshura@bookwormstory.social
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          To quote the reason why calling out mods by name is forbidden from a previous encounter I had with them: “removed for doxxing”

          So yeah I think you’re giving them too much credit here

          • sudneo@lemm.ee
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            I am not sure I understood. You called some mod by name and they removed the comment? If that’s the case, I perfectly understand and agree with the decision tbh.

            That said, this is a general argument, not referred to any particular mod. I think that many people get angry when their content is moderated and they might want to harass/argue/avenge against the mod who took that action.

            • Neshura@bookwormstory.social
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              You agree that tagging the username of a mod (wasn’t even one it was an admin) is doxxing? If so, you’re delusional.

              Mod names are visible by default on my instance so if taking a look there and then mentioning the username you see there is doxxing good luck with the rest of your life. You can’t have a system where everyone can easily find out who performed a mod action and then claim you were “doxxed”

              • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                No sorry, you said name as in the person’s name, I did not understand “username”.

                • Neshura@bookwormstory.social
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                  well in this particular case it wouldn’t have mattered, I used the username but the admin in question has their clear name set as the display name (which made the whole “doxxing” claim even funnier to me)

      • uhN0id@programming.dev
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        Perfectly reasonable to ban someone from completely unrelated communities like mechanical keyboard and arch Linux? Come on. It’s not like they’re throwing out toxic terms or criticizing on a personal level. They’re questioning the way things are being modded. Those aren’t even attacks.

        • sudneo@lemm.ee
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          They banned from the instance. Apparently the fact that you get banned from hosted communities is just a new feature.

      • NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
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        The criticism is warranted. They don’t even equally apply their own rules depending on context

      • aleph@lemm.ee
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        I think you have a very different definition of “perfectly reasonable” than most people.

  • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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    People are naive if they think the .ml admins and devs don’t intend to keep their thumb on the Lemmy scale. More instances need to take this threat seriously and defederate from .ml, and possibly even fork the Lemmy repos for when the devs inevitably decide they want to start building quiet exploits into the code. There are serious cyber security implications here that people are sleeping on

  • wahming@lemmy.world
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    I’ve been banned from .ml for being a ‘racist’ for being anti-Xi, despite the fact that I am Chinese, and pointed out my ethnicity as such in the discussion. I guess antisemitic Jews aren’t the only weird accusation getting thrown about nowadays.

  • EleventhHour@lemmy.world
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    As others have said, the only option available currently is to leave the instance and re-create your beloved communities elsewhere. The Lemmy.ml Admins also happen to be the ones actively developing the Lemmy code base, and they’re not gonna change because they feel entitled to do whatever they want, and technically, they can because they run the instance.

    My best advice is to move on from the instance.

    • FaceDeer@fedia.io
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      If you want to get away from the Lemmy codebase entirely I can vouch that mBin works quite nicely. I’ve been on fedia.io for months now and only once or twice hit some kind of technical problem, which was resolved quickly.

      • Atelopus-zeteki@kbin.run
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        MBIN FTW. KBIN has been “We are working on resolving the issues” for some days now. I hope Ernest is ok.

        I have a login for lemmy.ml, as I have several from when I was switching over from Reddit. I’m thinking from what I’m reading here, that it’s not an instance I want to associate with.

        • FaceDeer@fedia.io
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          6 months ago

          Yeah, nothing against Ernest but developing and running kbin is just too big to be a one-man show.

          • Atelopus-zeteki@kbin.run
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            Dude’s a superhero, and needn’t be a ‘lone ranger’. Agreed. As the Fediverse expands, it will be the work of many; it just has to be that way.

      • ahornsirup@sopuli.xyz
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        6 months ago

        Are there mobile apps yet? Because if no that’s one huge advantage Lemmy still has over Kbin/Mbin, and it’s why I switched to Lemmy when Artemis started having issues (it went down completely since) instead of going back to Kbin.

      • XNX@slrpnk.net
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        6 months ago

        Don’t forget about piefed it’s amazing and lets you subscribe to posts and/or comments. Theres someone who contributed Lemmy API compatibility to use some Lemmy apps with Piefed instances. Its still very early but so far its extremely promising and the codebase is in python and the main developer is focused on ensuring it wasy to contribute. Check it out: https://piefed.social

        Code is on codeberg which is great too https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi

    • Microw@lemm.ee
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      6 months ago

      Well since all major lemmy instances seem to hide mod names in their logs, we don’t know who the banning mods are.

      Lemmy.ml also has the funny quirk that it doesnt have a proper legal imprint or team list afaik. So we don’t have actual transparent information on who is on that instances admin team and who is not. Iirc only one of dessalines and nutomic is on that admin team anymore.

      • EleventhHour@lemmy.world
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        Well since all major lemmy instances seem to hide mod names in their logs, we don’t know who the banning mods are.

        I hardly see what that would accomplish if we could.

        • Microw@lemm.ee
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          People keep bringing up that because of the devs history with that instance, “surely it is the Lemmy devs themselves who are doing this”. Which hurts Lemmy’s reputation overall.

        • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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          I guess some mod actions could be considered accidents or mistakes instead of bad actors. A transparent system would have a flow to allow the user to contact and get such a mistake rectified, or report a wrongful mod action to an admin.

          But if the admin is a problem, then that needs more figuring out how to get one removed.

          • EleventhHour@lemmy.world
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            the only one who can remove an admin is a more senior admin, and they can already see behind the “mod” alias.

            your point seems moot

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    As a marxist, I’m myself tired of how tankies deals with criticism. And I don’t even understand how people can stay with “Stalin was not so bad”, knowing that he never planned to apply the last state of the Communist theory, and even if it did, massacre are not acceptable (sounds obvious), same applying with China and their open market.
    In my country (France), Stalinism isn’t a thing, all communists are against what happend in USSR, and most are anti-china.

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    as a communism sympathizing leftist, i hated these mods on reddit and i hate them here. the behavior is idiotic

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    The mods of the non-political subs need to move elsewhere, eventually after that the content will just be tankie bullshit and everyone can just defederate them.

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    6 months ago

    Thanks for shedding light on this! I will do my part and no longer post in communities tied to lemmy.ml!

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    I think all instances need to defederate. This is totally inexcusable. We shouldn’t be attached and well connected to a CCP-controlled (influenced or directly) community. This is propaganda, pure and simple.

    It’s not a problem to have dissenting opinions to widely held beliefs, but it is a problem to have those injected constantly into our streams while all opposition is silently erased and curated to artifically support state-sponsored CCP propaganda.

  • Audacious@sh.itjust.works
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    6 months ago

    Sad to see. Feels like Lemmy has no bright future with people in charge of it thinking russia’s and China’s government is good and ban difference of thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.

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    Thanks for spreading the word. We get these complaints every few weeks. More people need to be educated and move away from these instances to make the Threadiverse a better place.

  • AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet@lemmy.world
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    Not only do they delete truthful responses that contradict their ideology, they often do it in such a way that it is untraceable by other mods. I’m not sure how they accomplish that, nor is the admin who messaged me letting me know that it was happening and he couldn’t figure out how. Anyways, my solution has been to completely block that instance, and delete my account there. If they want to exist in a little untruthful echo chamber, then so be it, but I don’t need to be a part of it. I recommend you do the same thing.

    • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nlOP
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      I’m not sure how they accomplish that

      If they have database access, which they would have being the admins, they can do anything.

    • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nlOP
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      So it seems they do indeed clean up the modlog… my bans are still in there, but all mod actions where they removed China critical comments are no longer there.

    • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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      It is extremely obvious that the .ml admins run a malicious version of the Lemmy code which gives them additional levers of control. This alone makes them a serious threat to the entire fediverse.

      • sudneo@lemm.ee
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        It is not obvious, most likely not necessary and in any case completely unproven. Why are you so busy making stuff up in this thread?

    • lltnskyc@monero.town
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      they delete truthful responses that contradict their ideology

      That is EXACTLY what is done on lemmy.world.

        • lltnskyc@monero.town
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          Nice, didn’t know there was a possibility to see deleted comments, thanks :) (not every deleted comment is there though, but enough to show the total hypocrisy of lemmy.world)

          • OpenStars@discuss.online
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            https://beehaw.org/modlog?page=1&userId=4130334

            https://lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&userId=1782109

            It gets difficult to find them sometimes, depending on who removed it and from where. If a moderator, from the community, removed it then the removal reason could have originated from where the community is located at, whereas if an administrator of an instance removed it then it would be elsewhere.

            For all that the lemmy.ml admins enjoy going on sprees of mass-removals, it sure would be nice if they would add to the code a way to see the reasons for removal linked to directly from the comment itself.

            • lltnskyc@monero.town
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              Oh yeah, that’s the other one, thx!
              I did not even get a notification for that comment why it was deleted, but now I see, and sure enough - it’s misinformation (despite providing 5 or 6 links to sources in a comment below, including reputable western (!!) media and tens/hundreds of footages…). 🤷‍♂️