• AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    If this works as advertised then it’ll revolutionize more than just cars. This is huge

    • Wooki@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      So long as its not 2,3,4 times the price of current cars. Otherwise put them in busses and trains. Cost is strangly missing, I’m guessing because it is prohibitive.

  • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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    3 months ago

    This is the real next step, every other battery hasn’t made it to production, but if they’re sending out working EV batteries to EV manufacturers and have production line running then it’s finally real.

    And as soon as Korea starts mass producing long range, quick charge solid state batteries, the factories in China are going to start mass-producing them as well.

    Regardless of what it means politically, this is fantastic news, I didn’t know they were actually producing them beyond prototype stage into commercial production.

    Heellll yeah.

          • hubobes@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            I mean it is just economic warfare. China substitutes their EV producers to undercut competing countries. They respond with tarrifs. That is business as usual since global trade exists.

              • jumjummy@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                Completely free trade works as well as unregulated capitalism in that it’s terrible for the consumers. You’ll always end up with a monopoly.

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  3 months ago

                  I don’t think that’s true. There are other mechanisms besides tariffs and direct regulations that can help regulate markets, depending on what you’re looking for. For example:

                  • carbon taxes - charge companies for the cost of removing the carbon they emit; this would look like a tariff for imported goods, but they can reduce the tax by proving the carbon they emit is lower
                  • anti-trust - break up companies that break the law
                  • remove certain corporate protections - jail execs, increase liability (e.g. protect retirement assets and primary house, but not investments), etc
                  • more consistent and active enforcement of the laws we do have

                  I’m not saying we should flip the switch overnight to free trade, I’m saying we should be moving that direction. The only case I can see for tariffs is to reverse government subsidies. If we can prove China subsidizes EVs by X%, I’m fine with a matching tariff to level the playing field. However, if they’re merely able to produce them cheaper because labor there is cheaper, a tariff is merely protectionism and therefore illegitimate, and we should instead compete with automation or quality.

              • catloaf@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                The tariffs are to compensate for the Chinese government subsidizing production.

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  3 months ago

                  Are they? Or is it protectionism?

                  I’d like to see some actual numbers here, because 100% tariffs seems to be more than just the subsidies, but also includes labor cost disparity.

      • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        Won’t matter much; Chinese EVs are so inexpensively made, especially with subsidies, while exceeding European and American auto safety standards that tariffs for the last five years haven’t stopped them expanding outside of Asia.

        In addition, EVs are so much cheaper to produce, run and maintain for auto companies that tariffs aren’t going to make much of a difference stemming the continued EV manufacturing explosion.

        Capacity and range will just keep going up, any tariffs have so far been and will be footnotes in EV story rather than any sort of relevant market mechanism

        • Freefall@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Chinese EV sounds terrifying. I am sure the specific cars they sent for safety testing were well made and passed just fine, but I wouldn’t get into their production run vehicles.

          • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            Nah, these are the exact standards US/euro cars are tested by, tested annually, from regular production, not specially chosen cars.

            Besides, it isn’t like American or European companies didn’t make production line cars that literally blew up if they rear-ended someone.

            So far the manufacturing of Chinese EVs is doing very well, and each product is tested upon import anyway to make sure it conforms to the regulations of that country.

            Tanking a potential market like this for the Chinese doesn’t make any sense right now, at least outside of their country it makes the most corporate and political sense to do what they’re doing and exceed European and American auto safety standards.

            You should be more concerned about privacy invasion from the smart tech rather than the physical safety of the vehicles.

          • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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            3 months ago

            Who do you think manufactures basically everything at this point? Even frickin food is being imported from China.

            That being said I’d love for American competition, heck I’d just like the Elio I always wanted if it wasn’t for fricking Hummer. And Teslas have been built like garbage for the past couple years now.

            It being manufactured in China does not make it a quality issue unless the profit seeking is maxed out. Otherwise it just makes it like everything else being made over there which is it’s own problem.

        • Diplomjodler@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          My point is the the EU ans US are shooting themselves in the foot in a big way with these idiotic tariffs. The Chinese will just clean up in all other markets and if they retaliate, the EU will lose their most important export market, which is China.

          • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            I think the US is hoping to buy itself some time while their EV manufacturing catches up, but they being practical about the limited effect of these tariffs and aren’t making the necessary domestic investments so far to compete with the level of manufacture the Chinese are at and the level the Japanese and a few other countries will be at in 5 years.

            The market is still going to end up with safe, affordable EVs sooner than anyone thought, so I can’t get too worked up about the US not jumping into the race.

            If they don’t want to catch up, then they get left behind.

            They let others manufacture their TVs, computers, and toilet paper, it’s not unlikely they’ll let their national auto industry die as well.

      • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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        3 months ago

        I don’t trust it. Off brand looking name. Has the high price, but then their upcharge for a few cheap looking solar panels is like a ridiculous $1400.

        • HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com
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          3 months ago

          thats fine but I found out about it from a guys youtube where he ordered one and put it to the test. the guys channel has mostly been about his construction of a super efficient house with batteries and solar and such so I trust it exists as a product. not saying to anyone to buy it but was just showing they exist and are being sold. its not a wait and see battery technology anymore.

          • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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            3 months ago

            I have no doubts it exists as a product. I have doubts about its battery. I’d like a big transportable battery backup device, but I wouldn’t want to spend over $1,000 on such a thing if they battery is bad after 10 years. I can buy a gas generator for $500 and it will work fine for over 20 years without an issue. The battery just makes it much more convenient since there’s no worry of running out of gas and it’s silent and runs indoors.

          • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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            3 months ago

            Are you talking about Matt Ferrel from Undecided?

            Yeah…he doesn’t know a lot about batteries, really. He’s also doubled back after having some battery teardown reports shown to him and now says it doesn’t seem likely yoshino is using a real solid state battery.

            So no. It isn’t likely “yoshino” gets to be the first to market with a real solid state battery in their product.

  • lemmylurkaround@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill? 49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don’t need 600 miles of range, heck, 400 with a nine minute charge would be incredible. Basically drive 4-5 hours then stop for a bathroom break or bite to eat then keep going.

    • nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz
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      3 months ago

      600 miles of range is amazing, plus you have to realize that it doesn’t always keep that 600 mile range. Also most people don’t charge their battery to a 100%, for longevity they only charge up to 80% for the health of the battery

    • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill?

      You might be the only one that thinks this is overkill.

      49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don’t need 600 miles of range

      Then this doesn’t sound like you fit the use case, which is fine of course, but there are many that do.

      • Delivery drivers that may have to go to far places without consistent EV charging
      • Winter battery penalty. That 600 miles may be 400ish in extreme cold which many people on the planet live in for at least part of the year.
      • Heavy loads vehicles. The 600 mile number is used for the basis of comparison to today’s passenger sedan EVs. When putting these in heavy trucks, that 600 mile number may be cut down to 300 or even 200 miles, which opened up new avenues for EV heavy goods deliveries.

      In short. Its not just about you.

    • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      It comes with their version of a calendar installed and it wont charge unless you grant it permissions to access your gps log, at which point it will crash.

    • frezik@midwest.social
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      3 months ago

      Their batteries are usually top notch. If you’re hunting around for 18650 cells–which are notoriously bad for fake claims on Amazon and Aliexpress (“80,000mAh!!!” when the best 18650 cells are closer to 3,500mAh)–a genuine Samsung cell is a safe bet.

        • pahlimur@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Samsung was very transparent about their fuck up with the note 7. The article you linked makes it very clear it was a connection issue or a different manufacturer. At this point this is equivalent to the burn banana peels to get high or you eat dozens of spiders while you sleep internet lies.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            It’s not a lie, they screwed up twice. I don’t care if it was another manufacturer that screwed up, at the end of the day, Samsung is responsible for QA on anything they sell.

            That said, they were very transparent (hence why I linked it). However, I still don’t trust Samsung for other reasons:

            They do make some high quality stuff, but I generally avoid them because I don’t trust them (I do have a Samsung “dumb” TV, and I may get a Samsung washing machine). I don’t think their batteries will explode again, but they’ll probably do something like make it difficult for independent repair of their batteries. They’re actually better than most in their phones, but that’s a pretty low-value repair vs for cars.

            • pahlimur@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Mostly agree, I hate Samsung in general (sent from Samsung Galaxy S22). Anytime I see someone considering their appliances or TVs I try to turn them to something else. They have made the best batteries for a long time though. I hope a competitor rises to squish them a bit.

              Don’t buy a sumsung washer. I only buy used washers and dryers because I’m cheap and handy. Samsung is not an option because a large part of the user market is broken in a way that costs the same as buying new.

              I do sort of disagree with your QA comment. Everyone seems to think QA stops once you sell a product, but it doesn’t. They did a full recall to fix their quality mistake. It’d be like if Tesla finally recalled all of the cybertrucks for sucking as much as they do. Massive PR hit to attempt to maintain quality.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                3 months ago

                Idk, this was after they were banned by the FAA, so I don’t think it was a “PR hit to attempt to maintain quality,” I think it was to stem the damage. The Note 7 was already in the news by that point, and 3 major airlines had already started telling passengers to turn off their Note 7s specifically. The second set of devices failed even when powered off.

                Here’s Time’s timeline of events if you want to revisit it. I can understand the first not being caught, but Samsung should have been extra wary of the replacement devices. But no, they only stopped after even more bad news came out.

                If Samsung really cared about maintaining quality, they would’ve taken more than a month to test and ship fixed devices. They should’ve done a total recall and relaunch a few months later, once they have thoroughly tested their products.

                And thanks for the warning about Samsung washers. I have an LG now, and this is the second time the logic board has had an issue in the 10-ish years I’ve had it (this time it’s a sticking relay), and I’m debating repairing vs replacing it. The part is something like $100, but I’m thinking there’s a chance something else could die given its age. Then again, $100 is totally reasonable if it lasts another 5 years. If you have any recommendations for brands, I’m all ears.

                • crank0271@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  I went with Speed Queen for laundry machines. If I recall they have three models: a 3, 5, and 7, with a warranty of the same number of years (I got the 7). They’ve been mostly solid, but we have had some issues and I like that they are made to be serviced instead of thrown away and replaced. I’ve heard Maytag’s commercial line is similarly made to last.

      • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Well my $1800 phone has push notification ads for mobile games I can’t disable because Samsung flags the Galaxy Store as a system app so you can’t disable notifications. You can see here that the option is greyed out.

        They also install shitty games with “security updates” every month or so.

        • mrvictory1@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Use ADB to disable Store and AppCloud (adware/nagware that should be killed with fire). No, not the notifications, the apps themselves.

          • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            It’s ludicrous that my phone costs more than 2 different cars I’ve owned and I have to go through this kind of bullshit so they can make another 15 cents on average per user.

            • MeThisGuy@feddit.nl
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              3 months ago

              so why would you buy an $1800 phone if you can’t root it and load some FOSS on it?

              • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                Because I don’t want to lose my warranty on a phone with a soft plastic foldable screen.

                Yeah, denying warranty for rooting is technically illegal, but knowing that doesn’t do anything for me.

          • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            It’s been really bad recently on my Fold 3, but didn’t start happening until about a year after I got the phone.

            I think they wait for all the reviews and “1 year updates” from the YouTubers to pull this shit.

            They honestly can’t make that much off this bullshit on a per-device level. My phone costs more than 2 cars I’ve owned, and I could just buy a Pixel Fold next upgrade, so it wouldn’t take a huge percentage of users jumping ship to mage or more costly than profitable.

            If MKBHS, Linus Tech Tips, etc called them out in their reviews of Samsung devices it would stop overnight.

          • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            There’s actually a way to kill them, but it’s super hidden.

            You have to go to the phone notification settings, go into advanced settings, select the option to disable notification categories per app, then go back into notification settings, open the app list, open the three-dot menu and select system apps, then find the Galaxy store, then select categories to disable.

            Easy, right?

            • big_slap@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              hmm, so… I had the notifications category set to on. by doing this, I could see the different categories, so I think you have to have it on to select the correct categories instead of switching it off like you said.

              HOWEVER, check this bullshit out:

              I can’t turn important updates off, and there’s one they don’t even let me see. wtf!! I wish there was another company that did folding phones as good as Samsung 😢

        • Freefall@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Nova Launcher and set the first page of the app drawer as empty. Then when it does that, you see them and can uninstall. Samsung is trash, but I also don’t care if I drop my phone in the ocean, cause it isn’t $1400…so a trade-off.

        • Classy@sh.itjust.works
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          3 months ago

          I’m so glad that the launcher I use has a “Recently Installed Apps” button at the bottom of the apps list. It makes it so easy to go through and scrub the bullshit they install on my phone.

        • Kbobabob@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          So you want the batteries to not show ads? I don’t understand. Do you have any actual relatable issues between the batteries and other products?

  • Freefall@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Shit, if they run windows on whatever car uses these it could be a real adventure…will it crash when you lose wifi, or just explode randomly? ANYONES GUESS!

    The Ford Fukit, new EV for $1000, just sign these waivers and sign up for this power steering subscription. The braking fee will be automatically applied per month based on use. GOOD LUCK!

    • TheDarksteel94@sopuli.xyz
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      3 months ago

      That’s the main thing holding EVs back in general, in my opinion. That, and the price of EVs. Batteries will get better with time, chargers will get faster. But if there aren’t enough fast chargers all over the place like petrol stations, then the adoption of EVs will be too slow for prices to drop significantly until ICE vehicles aren’t supposed to be produced anymore.

      Also, I hope the electronics industry really gets their shit together in terms of recycling and sustainability.

  • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    I posted about this a week ago. The battery pack will likely be around 150kWh (Nio has a solid state battery car that will be produced that can do 577 miles on a 150kWh battery). The 9 minute charge is from 8-80% (according to the marketing material I dug up) so it is 432 miles of charge in 9 minutes. Considering fast charge costs like $0.50/kWh currently, I’m guessing most people will not be charging up that entire portion unless they are planning on driving for a long fucking time…after they have already been driving for 9-10 hours.

    But that charge rate would have to come from a charger that can output much higher than current ones. The highest output you are likely to find is 350kW which would take 18 minutes to charge that 108kWh. So while this battery can charge that fast, you are not likely to be able to find a charger with that high of output for a few years. Still great to be able to get a couple hundred miles of range in 9 minutes. Solid state batteries supposedly have a quicker ramp up period and can take the full output for a higher percentage of the battery.

    • tmjaea@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      There are already some charging stations in Germany offering 400kW. Still 16 minutes though. 800kW is just insane. CCS is currently capped at 500kW, so you would need MCS which is planned for trucks.

      • frezik@midwest.social
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        3 months ago

        If you do the math, the common standard plugs simply can’t do the charging rates that would be required here. You’d need a whole new plug design on top of all new chargers.

        It’s also silly and unnecessary. We should focus on getting more chargers out there, not chasing a fast charge time goal. If you plan your route out a bit, 20-30 minute charge times every 2-4 hours are fine for the vast majority of people.

        https://wumpus-cave.net/post/2024/03/2024-03-30-ten-minute-ev-charging-wont-happen/index.html

        • Mentando@feddit.org
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          3 months ago

          According to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 the standard was updated in 2022 to support up to 1500V and 800A. If this can be achieved simultaneously it would be 1.2MW.

          Whether it is necessary or realistic is another thing, but seems to be achievable without even changing the plug.

      • Dave.@aussie.zone
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        3 months ago

        Fucking hell, imagine the requirement of a couple of megawatt substation for fast charging, urban power planners must be shitting themselves.

        • Freefall@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Replace the gas stations with that stuff and have a charging network distributed around parking areas.

        • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Urban probably isn’t too bad, if it’s a proper city they already have power for the infrastructure of subways, lighting, and large buildings.

          Where it’s going to be tough is putting these in the ‘burbs or the large areas of mostly vacant interstate. There’s just no infrastructure for them to build off of, and EV charging infrastructure is already one of the issues holding people back from more widely adopting them.

          • Freefall@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            lol, I am picturing buried thorium salt reactors at charging stations in the boonies.

          • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            Many rural areas honestly would not be too bad since power plants are usually out there. Those generally tend to have pretty decent power infrastructure. It might be different in other states though. Here in Washington dams and wind farms tend to be pretty far out of town.

          • Dave.@aussie.zone
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            3 months ago

            Yeah, just the random added load equivalent to 80-100 houses per car, any time between 5am and 9pm would be enough to send local suburban grids into a spin, especially in summer evenings when there’s peak loading already underway. A lot of infrastructure would need to be beefed up to make it reliable.

            • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              We have an EV that charges on 110v current. It’s not fast, but plugged in the previous evening it will be ready to go by morning. Not a huge draw on the grid off household current. Obviously, just like you point out, more EV will increase demand…but charging off 110v overnight isn’t going to be as demanding as a “gas station” for EV that all want fast charge for people that maybe don’t have charging access otherwise.

              I imagine there would have to be some sort of organized system to pick charging time slots via the local electricity provider in order to keep the grid stable. EV owners could certainly get an electrical timer or via the EV manufacturer app to set a charging time.

              • Dave.@aussie.zone
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                3 months ago

                Yeah if you’ve got home charging it’s not a real issue. We use 240v here in Aus so you can pull quite a bit out of domestic outlets before having to get serious and generally overnight charging to top up the day’s commute would be fine.

                So it wouldn’t be a fast charger on every street, and you could always enforce limits by time of use pricing to put a dampener on peak loads.

                I just wonder if utility planners might get caught with their pants down on this one. Like, could you say 5 years ago chargers might run to 800kW?

                • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  I’d say grid planners everywhere are under serious strain. The demands for air conditioning in public and private spaces are getting higher, the number of household electronics is climbing along with data centers constantly consuming ever more amounts of electricity…now we add EV charging to the mix.

                  Yeah, I’d say they haven’t been able to keep up.

    • dgmib@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Your math checks out.

      Charging a 600 mi battery in 9 minutes would require a charging station that can output somewhere north of 1.2 MW.

      We need major upgrades to the electrical grid as well as doubling our electricity generation capacity for charging stations and vehicles like that to be common place.

    • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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      3 months ago

      You know, with charge times like that I wonder if roadside attractions will become more popular again.

      Maybe I should start on the next worlds largest rubber band ball now.

      • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Well most people are not needing to add over 400 miles when they charge up. That might be the case once a year for occasional families but most will be looking to add half that which is not much more time than it takes to fill up with gas. It might cause charging stations to offer more amenities. Or maybe the government could get off its ass and make it okay to put them in at rest stops, there wouldn’t be much of a problem at all.

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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      3 months ago

      Honestly, we do that. Almost every year we drive for 13-14 hours to visit my parents, which is something like 900 miles. We usually do 300-400 miles then refill gas and grab some fast food. We usually stop twice on this trip, sometimes three times if someone has an emergency. We also do some shorter 600 mile+ trips as well (in-laws and sibling are just over 600 miles away), and frequently drive ~200 miles, so we usually have 1-2 road trips each year.

      Current EVs that get something like 200-250 miles per change would require at least four stops, and 30min or so per stop, which would add at least 2 hours to the trip. That turns a one-day drive into a two-day drive, and probably three days if charging stations aren’t readily available. For the shorter trips (just over 600 miles), we’d still need to recharge at least twice, which adds more than an hour to the trip.

      So I’m absolutely interested in this kind of range. I don’t need 600 miles, but 400-500 would be good. Until they’re affordable, we’re sticking to our ICE family car, though we’re planning to exchange our hybrid commuter for an EV.

      • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        That is the case for some people but cases like that are pretty rare. There is no way I could do a drive like that. Current EVs are fine for the vast majority of people but there is the rare family that makes 900 mile trips once our twice a year. For those instances like yours, I’d suggest renting an ICE one or twice a year if you wanted to switch to an EV for your larger vehicle or get a plug in hybrid.

        Definitely swap out that commuter car. A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap. I did some math and replacing our Prius C with one would save $1200/year in gas costs. And then there are oil change costs that you save and a few others.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap

          Yeah, I’ve been looking at them, and it’s something like $13k, which is definitely in the reasonable range of prices, especially since I can probably get $5k for my current car.

          However, I’m worried about battery issues. People claim it’s fixed, but I’ll be parking mine in my garage and there’s a lot of flammable stuff in there. So I’m a little hesitant. I don’t need to ever fast charge it since I only drive like 200 miles per week (and never more than 100 miles in a day, usually like 50), so trickle charging should be totally fine. If I can confirm that, I might just do the swap. Or maybe I’ll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.

          Our gas and electricity costs are pretty low ($3.50/gal and $0.12-0.13/kWh), so even at $13k, the Bolt would still need ~10 years to pay back for itself (and that’s not counting the opportunity cost of investing that money). I’m still tempted based purely on the convenience factor (never needing to go to a gas station again), but it’s not a slam dunk yet. If the car dies, I’ll certainly replace the commuter with an EV though, I would just rather avoid the hassle of listing and selling my current car.

          From a purely climate perspective, it’s probably better for me to replace our family car. We get ~20mpg, and hybrids would get 30-40mpg, and a plug-in would get emissions-free for most of our around-town trips. That car is only used for very short trips (<20 miles) or long trips (>200 miles), with almost nothing in-between. But those cars are super expensive right now, so I’m watching the used market to see if I can score a deal.

          • gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            3 months ago

            Or maybe I’ll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.

            If you will EVER need to fast charge then the leaf is going to be more annoying because it has CHADeMO and not CCS

            Get the bolt unless you’re certain that’ll never be a problem even once, it’s seriously not worth it anymore

            Source: longtime happy leaf owner who hates CHADeMO as it cannot be easily converted to CCS like NACS can

          • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            I would advise against a Leaf, especially used. Nissan was great at getting a popular, cheap EV out the door but they have completely stagnated since then. The Leaf’s big issue is that the battery is air cooled. That’s fine if you live in Hawai’i where the temperature is in the 70s year round but places that experience heat will see a severe degradation in range relatively quickly. It’s not unheard of fire a 10 year old Leaf to only get maybe a dozen miles of range. There is also the fact that it uses CHAdeMO instead of CCS for fast charge. They have finally started to make adapters but they are $1000 and are not officially supported.

            If you are indeed worried about a Bolt battery, you could always park it outside. There is not a catalytic converter for thieves to rip off so being out of a garage is not a big issue in that regard.

            I would agree that switching will likely not make a ton of sense for you. Thankfully in my state, they offer a rebate for EVs on top of the federal credit so a used EV for us would pay for itself in about 5 years.

      • RaoulDook@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        That’s a long day in the car, too much for me. Any road trip over about 350 miles gets me pretty exhausted and sick of being in the car. So I’d be OK with a 300 mile range and stopping overnight at a hotel with a charger nearby for trips like that.

    • Pantsofmagic@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Does fast charging reduce the lifespan of a battery like this? The headline is bothersome because my suspicion is it won’t last 20 years if you fast charge all of the time and whatnot. I realize that’s not a typical case but it’s good to understand the trade-offs.

      • ExFed@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        The chemistry is substantially different, so we’ll probably have to wait until scientists run some tests to get a more precise set of parameters that affect degradation. I expect failure modes like dendrites are basically impossible with solid-state, but electrode cracking is still possible. There might even be new and exciting ways they can degrade! Regardless, this is still great news.

        Engineering Explained has a good summary: https://youtu.be/w4lvDGtfI9U (Piped link: https://piped.video/watch?v=w4lvDGtfI9U)

  • fubarx@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    Every car show, they put out ‘concept cars’ that will never see the light of day.

    ‘New batteries’ are giving off the same vibe.

    • Buffalox@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      If you own an EV factory you can:

      initial batches have already been delivered to EV manufacturers for testing.

    • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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      3 months ago

      “I came to the technology community and was surprised when they started talking about things that aren’t in production.”

      • doingthestuff@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Yeah I often drive over 1000 miles in a day, sometimes as much as 1600+ so this is the only way I’d consider electric. Although it sounds like at a high speed supercharger it would be more expensive than regular gasoline. At least there’s progress.

        • M500@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          If you average 60 miles per hour, then 1000 miles would take you 16 hours. There is not way you are regularly doing that. It’s not taking into account gassing up, breaks to get food.

          • MutilationWave@lemmy.world
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            This is totally possible. Maybe not for 1600 miles but 1000 for sure. I do this for 500-800 miles regularly. Sometimes 1000+. Speed limit is 70mph on most US highways and the unspoken agreement is you can go 8 or 9 over and not get pulled over. In metropolitan areas you can typically go even faster on the beltway, almost everyone does. You train yourself not to need to piss as often, so you piss while you gas up. You don’t eat until your drive is done.

      • frezik@midwest.social
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        3 months ago

        These aren’t in a lab. They’re being manufactured right now.

        There’s a toxic positivity in battery tech news. So many things only end up being practical in a lab, but the news headlines sensationalizes every single one. Its led people to believe that no advancements are coming. But the truth is that batteries improve 5-8% in kwh/kg per year, and that compounds over time to some real gains.

  • jordanlund@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I get the cost, but it should be an option to upgrade any current EV to this new style battery.

    • AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today
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      It’s not needed in today’s EVs. Things should be upgradable yes, but it’s not necessary to replace current existing lithium batteries with this and doing so would probably do more harm than good.

      • jordanlund@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        I’m thinking less in terms of lifespan and more in terms of range and charging time.

        You shouldn’t have to upgrade your entire car to get a 600 mile range and 9 minute charge time if all that’s needed is better battery tech.

        • AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today
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          Two questions if that’s the reasoning: how often are you driving 600 let alone 300 miles? How often are you out of range of charging, if at all? Charging at fast chargers already only takes 20 minutes, the same amount it takes to pee and get a drink.

          Charging at home makes range not matter. It’s not gas, you’re just always charged up. You don’t want to sit at 100% anyway, because again, it’s not gas.

          • jordanlund@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            The object is to get people to give up gas cars, you do that by providing a better range and a “refill” time roughly equivalent with sitting at a gas pump.

            And, yeah, vast areas of the country do not yet have good access to charging stations:

            https://www.axios.com/2024/06/25/charging-deserts-evs-electric-cars

            https://www.eenews.net/articles/ev-charging-deserts-are-growing-in-rural-areas-study/

            https://www.hbs.edu/bigs/the-state-of-ev-charging-in-america

            • AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today
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              You’re missing the point: it’s not like gas, and can’t be compared as such. If you have a home charger, you never need to use public charging except when road tripping, because your car charges within 4-6ish hours (my home charger does around ~22mi/hr), or overnight if you have a slower charger. You cannot do the same with gas unless you just top off at the gas pump every day.

              I’m not trying to get into charging deserts right now - frankly, most people do not live in them, and thus make up less of the EV market at the moment. We haven’t even come close to meeting your given objective of replacing gas in even populated areas. Anyway, this article is about a 600 mile solid state battery that will only be in luxury $200k+ cars (which most people in very rural counties wouldn’t be able to afford), if at all. Not charging deserts.

              • naeap@sopuli.xyz
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                3 months ago

                Not everyone has a house…

                I’m living in an apartment and charging at home is not an option. I do have a EV though and when we take a larger trip, I need to plan a bit more to charge up before the trip.
                That sucks a bit, else it’s pretty great

                • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  3 months ago

                  I think landlords should, legally, have to allow you to put a wallbox at the space where you park your car. Maybe they should also just have to pay it themselves. It’s stupid that people have to pay so much more and go through such a hassle to charge their car because, I assume, landlords dom’t allow them to put a wallbox at their car’s parking space.

              • jordanlund@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                Not everyone can have a home charger. People living in apartments and condos won’t have access. Heck, even people who do have their own homes will have to upgrade their electrical panels to allow for charging.

                Until everyone can charge at home, it all boils down to how much range a car gets and how fast it recharges, which is why this new battery tech is such a game changer.

                • AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today
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                  3 months ago

                  Again, the people that can’t have a charger at home will not be able to afford this. It’s not a game changer, it would take higher powered chargers than the ones that currently exist, making your whole “charging desert” issue more problematic (not to mention that you first had an issue with rural charging and are now talking about urban environments where charging access is easy to come by even if not directly in your apartment).

                  The solution isn’t prohibitively expensive 600 mile range batteries (are you still saying you need that on the daily?), it’s more chargers.

    • frezik@midwest.social
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      3 months ago

      There’s some EVs that are integrating the battery into the frame in order to save weight. And it does save weight, but there’s no way to replace the battery.

    • sushibowl@feddit.nl
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      3 months ago

      These are gonna be hella expensive for a while. If space is not a concern there’s much cheaper batteries out there. You don’t really need fast charging capabilities either.

      • Hule@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        In a home, power density doesn’t really matter. If a battery is large and heavy, you still only transport it twice. Once new, once when you replace it.

    • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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      3 months ago

      Not very. There’s a different sodium based battery being designed for home storage. Not nearly as energy dense, but will last a very long time, can be left outside the house, and uses cheap components (no lithium or other rare metals).

      That’s the battery you’ll want.

      • ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net
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        3 months ago

        Gas-holes will tell you that the rare metals leak poison into dirt.

        As if gasoline isnt already doing that.

        • Chakravanti@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          They aren’t. They’re doing it right and into the air you all will breath and bake in for the rest of your, now short, life, suckers.

      • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Because carrying a 2-ton metal box around you for every single trip you want to do is the least efficient possible way of doing so. Walk places, ride bikes, take trains, minimize car trips and promote carsharing for the occasional trips where cars are actually necessary.

          • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            56% of humans live in cities, and this is increasing over time. It’s cool that you’re the exception who lives kilometers away from the nearest store (poor planning in your village though), but the reality is that by proper city-planning and good public transit investment, most people wouldn’t even need to have cars at all.

            • carl_dungeon@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              I don’t live in a city, I live outside of one- they don’t block off the land around here and say you can’t live on it. I’m not interested in living in a city- I have a couple of acres, gardens, old oak trees towering all around giving me shade, I’m near a lake where I can go boating, I have space for my camper and garden tools. I’ve lived in apartments and townhouses, and when you live right next to work, then yeah, walking across the street to your job is great, but if you want something more than 1000sqft for your family and dog- you find yourself outside a city.

              On the flip though, I can work from home so I drive a lot less than many, and our groceries are delivered so there are efficiencies gained by a single vehicle delivering to multiple homes instead of each making a trip.

              And furthermore, I have enough space to put in a large solar array which I’m currently looking into. If I ever get an electric car, I’ll be able to charge completely off grid with green power. All of that is tougher crammed in a high density urban environment where you’re at the mercy of infrastructure out of your control.

              • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                Please tell us how environmentally friendly bringing infrastructure like internet, roads, electricity, water or garbage disposal to low-population density areas is, and how resource-efficient single family houses are. Go off living your happiest life, mate, just don’t preach about the sustainability of it when your eco-footprint is twice that of a city dweller.

                As advice: for solar panels to charge an EV, you’re gonna need a fuckton of them. An EV battery is easily 50kWh, which means a 10kW solar installation producing full energy for 5 hours (assuming perfect efficiency on conversion). So be ready to buy a lot of panels.

                • carl_dungeon@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  Well I’m on well water, and I live near Amazon data centers so power was already close by at large scale. I have a septic system, so there’s no sewage lines. Internet is fiber, also already here because of Amazon and it runs on common telco lines that have been there 100 years and uses almost no power for transmission. As for solar, whole home solar arrays are common in my area, I could probably fit 30-50 panels on the sun side.

                  I’m not arguing that it’s more sustainable, just that endless population growth crammed into mega cities isn’t a great solution either- I think smaller communities with some measure of independence is probably more sustainable than city sized archologies with people crammed in coffins- that’s no way to live. With fewer people the slices of pie can be bigger. Cities use an unbelievable amount of concrete for infrastructure which is a huge pollutant and a finite resource due to the limited supply of special sand required.

                  There’s no easy solution- I’m just saying for many, it’s not as simple as just taking a bike. I feel like reducing heavy industry and global population and making Chinese trash products illegal would have a far greater impact on global sustainability, as those things use orders of magnitude more energy and resources than every country dweller’s cars combined. And don’t get me started on energy hungry crypto and AI farms- they use more power than the bottom 10 countries combined.

                  Industry has done a great PR campaign making people feel guilty and personally responsible while generating billions of tons of plastic bottles, bags, and packages which are 90% not recyclable regardless of the blue bins. Small changes at industrial scale would have far greater impact- like switching back to glass bottles or waste fiber bags. Not to say we shouldn’t each do our part, but we as individuals carry an unfair share of the blame for problems largely created by unregulated profit driven enterprises.

                • carl_dungeon@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  Well I’m on well water, and I live near Amazon data centers so power was already close by at large scale. I have a septic system, so there’s no sewage lines. Internet is fiber, also already here because of Amazon and it runs on common telco lines that have been there 100 years and uses almost no power for transmission. As for solar, whole home solar arrays are common in my area, I could probably fit 30-50 panels on the sun side.

                  I’m not arguing that it’s more sustainable, just that endless population growth crammed into mega cities isn’t a great solution either- I think smaller communities with some measure of independence is probably more sustainable than city sized archologies with people crammed in coffins- that’s no way to live. With fewer people the slices of pie can be bigger. Cities use an unbelievable amount of concrete for infrastructure which is a huge pollutant and a finite resource due to the limited supply of special sand required.

                  There’s no easy solution- I’m just saying for many, it’s not as simple as just taking a bike. I feel like reducing heavy industry and global population and making Chinese trash products illegal would have a far greater impact on global sustainability, as those things use orders of magnitude more energy and resources than every country dweller’s cars combined. And don’t get me started on energy hungry crypto and AI farms- they use more power than the bottom 10 countries combined.

                  Industry has done a great PR campaign making people feel guilty and personally responsible while generating billions of tons of plastic bottles, bags, and packages which are 90% not recyclable regardless of the blue bins. Small changes at industrial scale would have far greater impact- like switching back to glass bottles or waste fiber bags. Not to say we shouldn’t each do our part, but we as individuals carry an unfair share of the blame for problems largely created by unregulated profit driven enterprises.

  • Happywop@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Oh please! I’d love to see Big Oil shrivel and die just like our societies and very planet have under their influence.

    • wagoner@infosec.pub
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      3 months ago

      They will just take all their oil billions and buy up battery companies at the last moment.

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        3 months ago

        They can do that with a lot of them, but not all. You can’t really sell an oil platform when nobody is buying oil anymore. The “stranded assets” is a huge motivator for fossil industries to prolong the switch to renewables as long as possible. Problem is the governments being complicit. They could have made clear paths from when on no new fossil investments were allowed to create a proper phase out.

      • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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        3 months ago

        How are they going to convert their assets in that scenario? The value of oil will just go down from here on out, eventually it’ll reach a point where it starts going back up again because it’ll be such a hard to acquire commodity for the few people that want it.

        Eventually we’ll get to a point where the only people who use oil are rich people who can afford to run vintage cars and presumably pay some kind of carbon offset tax.

        • ThePrivacyPolicy@lemmy.ca
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          3 months ago

          And even for vintage cars and stuff, I assume we’ll see better eco friendly and bio fuels being created that could be made in smaller batches without needing to use conventional oil as the fuel. Starting to see more and more of this on aviation already, and even some old warbirds have done recent tests on these fuels and run really well.

          • VirtualOdour@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            Yeah the US Airforce tested all their planes even the stealth bomber on a SAF that can be made from sequestered carbon, they said it passed all tests and that it would be a great way to be fuel independent, they’re especially interested as it seems to look possible to fit carbon capture and processing in a small enough package to fit in an aircraft carrier. Even if manned planes aren’t as useful in future conflicts we’ll likely see drones that use jet fuel replace them.

    • Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Too bad the lithium battery industry is no better. Those places are child labor slave mines and the environmental damage is astronomical…

      • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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        3 months ago

        You’re missing the big picture. Firstly because they’re reducing the cobalt requirements in batteries which will massively help. Also long-term lithium and cobalt are metals, they are found all over the place. Oil and coal are products that require life and as far as we know Earth is the only planet in the solar system to have organics like that.

        But we can mine asteroids for materials to build batteries. Long before that we’ll have automation to mine the materials on Earth does not requiring human labor. Long-Term this is an improvement it isn’t a zero-sum gain at all like you’re making out

      • Atrichum@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        You’re probably thinking of cobalt or perhaps hard rock lithium mines. Most lithium is just pumped out of the ground as brines, just like oil.

      • VirtualOdour@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        You really sound desperate to reject any possibility that hard work and human ingenuity can solve problems. I assume it’s because you’re scared of feeling you have to actually take life seriously and consider the implications of each choice you make.

      • bricklove@midwest.social
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        3 months ago

        This is true but coal mining is just as bad and requires orders of magnitude (mineral fuels) more excavation than all of the other minerals combined. If we can stop mining coal by using renewables the total amount of mining will be a fraction of what it currently is. Plus many of the other minerals can be reused where coal just ends up as carbon in the atmosphere.

        • Pogbom@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          This is exactly it. Of course battery production is harmful too, but not only is it less harmful than other sources to extract, you also don’t have to burn batteries to generate the power. With fossil fuels, the extraction is massively more harmful and then the use itself creates even more pollution.

          • bastion@feddit.nl
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            3 months ago

            Trees are technically a green, renewable fuel (if humanity used them that way). The carbon dioxide released is that which was sequestered during the tree’s life.

            But oil is gathering material that accrued over vast amounts of time, and using that, dumping huge volumes of co2 directly onto the air. There’s no cycle happening there - just pure extraction for our extinction.

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      3 months ago

      I mean they absolutely will when civilization collapses due to climate collapse and accompanying weather events, famine, droughts, and plagues.

      I take solace in knowing that they can build all the luxury bunkers they want, but they will one day come to realize they are their tombs, protecting them from the world they damned, including for any of their nepo baby legacy huddled underground with them, for a couple million years.

      • Xanis@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        I’d appreciate if people just like you would stop taking any solace and tolerating this bs. The ONLY reason this shit continues to happen is because too many people do nothing. Then when asked they get defensive and say, “What am I supposed to do?!” followed by “What are you doing?!” Like guys, you’re smart enough to recognize the perils of these industries, read journals and papers, and internalize the evidence, and you can’t fucking do a quick Google search on activism and even lightly contemplate entering yourself into local politics?

        Come now.

        • Allonzee@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          I was part of Occupy, and it was mostly the fellow peasants being hurt from this system laughing us off the street. I made phone calls for Bernie’s primaries.

          I still vote the least non-progressive out of harm reduction, and will vote for Harris, as I would have for Biden’s corpse, just as I did voting for his corpse the last cycle, and Clinton before when not many showed up. But I no longer have hope. That’s just so I can look myself in the mirror and say I did the right thing in the face of madness.

          Good on you if you have hope, rage against the dying of that light. I’ve seen too much to believe that the nobility of the human spirit will prevail.

          • Xanis@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            I was taught a lesson when I was younger that you cannot compare your trauma to that of another. I also learned that it isn’t rage which defines progress, it is determination. Apathy, a loss of hope, quells the spirit and stunts progress. Those not on the Right are especially individualistic. We cater to the spirit of independence, while also celebrating love and community, though always as individuals to individuals. It’s not “I” or “Myself” that makes the change. The shift happens when we step up together and change sets in when there is a united, achievable goal.

            In near every recent movement the Left has been a part of with the exception of Bernie, there has been nothing that was clearly defined and clearly achievable. Just a bunch of angry people loosely pointing fingers. FeelTheBern DID work and imagine how things may have been different not if Bernie had been elected, but if we with our strength of spirit continued down a united path. Bernie’s ENTIRE message was never about getting him elected, it was always about us coming together and being active as one.

            I’m sad that so many people seem to have forgotten that.

            • Allonzee@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              I hear you about the long arm of history, and I might even agree, but not just our society, but our species was put on notice we are risking the habitability of our only shared, sole habitat in the medium term a century ago. Now it’s here, it’s accelerating, we are feeling amuse bouche of our reverse terraforming project, scientists are finding new runaway effects their conservative estimates didn’t account for, and still humanity collectively shrugs because we can’t disrupt our global economy short term even to literally have a future for our species. We, the US, are among the leaders in the world in terms of accelerating that destruction.

              I likely would have more of an attitude of not for us, for our children if that weren’t the case. But physics doesn’t care that we are the slow learners. I hold the shame and guilt in my heart for my son’s likely hellish future that I really can do nothing about short of becoming an ecoterrorist which for the record I’m not playing on becoming.

              • Xanis@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                Exactly why “we” is important. People are struggling and it’s difficult to consider the world when your own life is falling apart.

                Unfortunately I don’t have a true solution to this beyond the need for a real leader to step up. Well…there is another solution, though I’d rather not speak of it for fear of ending up on a list. It’s also not one I support. Still, I feel strongly that we can find our way.

                At the very least I’m not just going to roll over.

        • No_Eponym@lemmy.ca
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          3 months ago

          Yeah, but humans are not very effective at organising humans to act in their best interests in a coordinated and logical manner. I feel that this will be even more of a challenge post-collapse. Some bunkers may get caulked. Most will get left alone.